So many accidents already.

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While I agree it's easy to get licenced in the USA Canada, I have never seen statistics suggesting
MacDoc said:
Not even a fast bike.

In Queensland Australia the first 3 months of a L class bike ( 46 hp or less ) the new rider must be accompanied by another fully licenced rider on another motorcycle or in a car.

THEN they can ride on their own with restrictions. I think two years they get a full licence but it does not allow Open class bikes so they are restricted to those until they take a separate test for that.

That said ....there are still lots of accidents.

What's the point of threads like this?...motorcycling has dangers. Deal with it.

I do think tho graduated licencing would be a good idea for Ontario.
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I have my doubts on the effectiveness of this. Canada and Australia are relatively good comparisons as the speed of traffic, mix of urban and rural roads and overall roadway construction are more comparable than England and Canada.

Now here's the hard thing to explain - Australia has arguably the most comprehensive graduated licencing system on the planet yet they lag behind Canada with crash and fatality rates per km traveled. Considering they have an advantage in weather, traffic enforcement and graduated licencing you would think they should be doing better. Perhaps the nanny approach isn't always necessary.

.
 
Mad Mike said:
While I agree it's easy to get licenced in the USA Canada, I have never seen statistics suggesting

I have my doubts on the effectiveness of this. Canada and Australia are relatively good comparisons as the speed of traffic, mix of urban and rural roads and overall roadway construction are more comparable than England and Canada.

Now here's the hard thing to explain - Australia has arguably the most comprehensive graduated licencing system on the planet yet they lag behind Canada with crash and fatality rates per km traveled. Considering they have an advantage in weather, traffic enforcement and graduated licencing you would think they should be doing better. Perhaps the nanny approach isn't always necessary.

.
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I have only limited driving experience in oz, but what I had was much sketchier than Canada. Higher speed limits, hours between towns on gravel roads and some strange roads where they pave a single lane up the centre and if you encounter oncoming traffic, you both drop at least two wheels into the gravel. That's not so bad on the straight, but when you're in a blind tight corner with 200 km/h closing speed, it's all kinds of exciting.
 
GreyGhost said:
I have only limited driving experience in oz, but what I had was much sketchier than Canada. Higher speed limits, hours between towns on gravel roads and some strange roads where they pave a single lane up the centre and if you encounter oncoming traffic, you both drop at least two wheels into the gravel. That's not so bad on the straight, but when you're in a blind tight corner with 200 km/h closing speed, it's all kinds of exciting.
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That's outside urban areas . Around urban areas they are much better, but then again we can talk about road design, which also is another factor. I think a lot of the attitude here is "big city F U and every one else" we seem to have here.
 
MacDoc said:
Not even a fast bike.

In Queensland Australia the first 3 months of a L class bike ( 46 hp or less ) the new rider must be accompanied by another fully licenced rider on another motorcycle or in a car.

THEN they can ride on their own with restrictions. I think two years they get a full licence but it does not allow Open class bikes so they are restricted to those until they take a separate test for that.

That said ....there are still lots of accidents.

What's the point of threads like this?...motorcycling has dangers. Deal with it.

I do think tho graduated licencing would be a good idea for Ontario.
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They used to do that in Quebec. I think they're now changing to something more like the Ontario system.
 
Well, given that most cross turns, are the fault of the Cager. Let's face reality, sometimes, it is also, due to the rider, riding well beyond their ability. A perfect example of this, was just posted either late last week or the beginning of this week, (in the fallen riders sub forum). It showed a photo of an 18 wheeler turning left from what appeared to be a T intersection. The bike ran into the driver side of the tractor. As we all know, rigs don't exactly fly around left turns. From the photo, it appeared, that there were clear sight lines, (IE no trees of other obstructions to hide a vehicle making the left turning vehicles).

Unfortunately, the photo didn't show the roadway the bike was travelling on. Were there clear sight lines, was there a rise in the road surface, which would make it a lot harder, to see a vehicle approaching? If there were such a rise, and a bike going over the limit, would it be plausible for the driver of the tractor unit to not see the fast approaching bike?

So if we as riders are honest, we all have to look at the photo and ask, how is it possible that the rider didn't see the 18 wheeler? Even IF we were to accept that the tractor unit ran a red light or stop sign, the rider "should" have seen it approaching the intersection at a speed which made it likely they weren't going to be stopping. Therefore, the next logical question is why did the rider not see the impending danger, and react accordingly?
We also know that a bike, (being operated by an experienced rider), can in ALL scenarios, come to a safe stop quicker than a cage.

Yes, the tractor unit should NOT have begun his turn, as it obviously wasn't safe to do so. But the riding community, also has to critically look at collisions, such as this, and ask themselves, how can I learn from this type of collision.

Now two other tidbits.... Earlier in this thread someone stated that police should be able to determine if a driver was not using handsfree while on their cell. The police routinely, (unfortunately, mainly in fatals), obtain a search warrant for the driver's cell provider to provide usage logs, to determine if the driver was on their phone, at the time of the collision.

Also, earlier in this thread, someone made a comment, about "accidents" that are for the most part preventable. If you speak to a cop, there is a reason, (even WAY back when I was in the patrol section), we never used the term accident, but instead used the term collision, (As I still do till this day...lol).
 
GreenPlane said:
You know guys, I'm not sure that graduated licencing is what we need.
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Graduated licencing is what we already have. Remember, M1, M2, M.

The problem is that despite being better than the old system where you just get a full M right out of the gate (the graduated part was added in the early 90's) it has proven to be inadequate, and honestly, hasn't kept up with the times - it hasn't changed one bit in the 25+ years it's been in place.

It's time that the education portion becomes more in depth, the road test for your full M becomes more difficult (honestly, despite how much some freak out over it, it's stupid easy as it is for anyone with even a mediocre riding skills), loopholes that allow people to get a full M without taking the full test are closed (a recent thread here on that very topic is a good example), and more restrictions are placed on what you can and cannot (and SHOULD not) ride under different classes of licences.

The current system that allows anyone with deep enough pockets to go out and buy something like a Hayabusa and ride it with an M1 with few restrictions (and 90 days later, ride it anywhere and anytime with an M2) is patently ridiculous. It's bad enough when you have people who can barely ride and have no sensibilities or "spidey sense" that riders acquire with saddle time hopping on powerful (SS) or huge and heavy (big bore cruisers), but being able to do so without any steps in between is a recipe for what we are now experiencing here.

There's a reason I started my wife out on a 250 for a season, then a 650 for 2.5 more...before we bought her current 1100. She has about 4 years or so under he belt now and handles it pretty well, but geeesh, I couldn't think of having put her on that when she first started. But hey, she could have.
 
GreenPlane said:
Considering how difficult it is to start riding in Canada for young people (mostly because of insurance and other costs)..
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It seems to only be Ontario not Canada. In Halifax it's normal to pay $350 for example for the whole year as a new rider for insurance, eventually it drops even lower. They think $600 is expensive lol Imagine giving them quotes for 4 figures.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Graduated licencing is what we already have. Remember, M1, M2, M.

The problem is that despite being better than the old system where you just get a full M right out of the gate (the graduated part was added in the early 90's) it has proven to be inadequate, and honestly, hasn't kept up with the times - it hasn't changed one bit in the 25+ years it's been in place.

It's time that the education portion becomes more in depth, the road test for your full M becomes more difficult (honestly, despite how much some freak out over it, it's stupid easy as it is for anyone with even a mediocre riding skills), loopholes that allow people to get a full M without taking the full test are closed (a recent thread here on that very topic is a good example), and more restrictions are placed on what you can and cannot (and SHOULD not) ride under different classes of licences.

The current system that allows anyone with deep enough pockets to go out and buy something like a Hayabusa and ride it with an M1 with few restrictions (and 90 days later, ride it anywhere and anytime with an M2) is patently ridiculous. It's bad enough when you have people who can barely ride and have no sensibilities or "spidey sense" that riders acquire with saddle time hopping on powerful (SS) or huge and heavy (big bore cruisers), but being able to do so without any steps in between is a recipe for what we are now experiencing here.

There's a reason I started my wife out on a 250 for a season, then a 650 for 2.5 more...before we bought her current 1100. She has about 4 years or so under he belt now and handles it pretty well, but geeesh, I couldn't think of having put her on that when she first started. But hey, she could have.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear, graduated licencing with bikes restrictions (like in UK or AU).

I 100% agree with you about education. In fact, I would say that we need mandatory education (multiple courses), voluntary education (i.e. easily accessible various courses) and also public campaigns in order to promote such type of education.

At the same time, I don't believe that cc restrictions are very helpful. My opinion is based on observations/life experience only and I don't have data to prove it (but I'm sure that we might find it e.g. using AU as an example). Yes, it is smart to start on a smaller bike. I personally think that 250 are not comfortable on hwy and as a result, I would prefer 300-500 as a starter bike. However, if education is not in place and riders don't have the right mindset then e.g. the collision example with a truck on a T intersection can happen even if the rider on a 250 bike. Plus, I don't see how restrictions can prevent cases when riders will just wait for a few years and continue to ride dangerously but on a bigger bike with a less restrictive lic.

As a result, I think that only education can improve the situation on the roads. Additional "cc" restrictions will just make motorcycle experience more complex and expensive for most of the riders.
 
BB722 said:
It seems to only be Ontario not Canada. In Halifax it's normal to pay $350 for example for the whole year as a new rider for insurance, eventually it drops even lower. They think $600 is expensive lol Imagine giving them quotes for 4 figures.
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Wow, I didn't know that! I thought that obviously there is a difference because of less population density but didn't expect such numbers. Thanks for posting it!
 
GreenPlane said:
Sorry, I wasn't clear, graduated licencing with bikes restrictions (like in UK or AU).

I 100% agree with you about education. In fact, I would say that we need mandatory education (multiple courses), voluntary education (i.e. easily accessible various courses) and also public campaigns in order to promote such type of education.

At the same time, I don't believe that cc restrictions are very helpful. My opinion is based on observations/life experience only and I don't have data to prove it (but I'm sure that we might find it e.g. using AU as an example). Yes, it is smart to start on a smaller bike. I personally think that 250 are not comfortable on hwy and as a result, I would prefer 300-500 as a starter bike. However, if education is not in place and riders don't have the right mindset then e.g. the collision example with a truck on a T intersection can happen even if the rider on a 250 bike. Plus, I don't see how restrictions can prevent cases when riders will just wait for a few years and continue to ride dangerously but on a bigger bike with a less restrictive lic.

As a result, I think that only education can improve the situation on the roads. Additional "cc" restrictions will just make motorcycle experience more complex and expensive for most of the riders.
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Very few people would play the long game. In my experience, the majority of the people that buy fast or heavy bikes to start are doing it for the image not the ride and most of them become the statistics. By forcing them to own a less cool bike for a time, most just wouldn't bother riding. Less image-conscious Noobs, less stupid crashes, lower insurance rates for the rest of us. It's not perfect, but it's a start.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for every rider to start on a 125. <500 seems like a reasonable limit where everybody fits and can easily exceed every speed limit in the province. Alternatively, set a hp limit as in a cruiser much less than 750 is normally terrible, but that just opens up the games where bikes get sold with low hp, but well known easy hacks to drastically increase the power.
 
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Mad Mike said:
The numbers are always saddening. I ride every day, there isn't an intersection I enter without having an exit plan, I simply can't rely on other motorists to keep me safe. Here are a few things I do all the time:

1) Head on a swivel -- I check ahead, back and side to side more often that a bobblehead doll.
2) Identify high risk situations like intersections and roadway entry points (driveways), oncoming vehicles, blind curves, have a plan to avoid contact.
3) Stay in clean air. If at all possible, I'll look for areas where the cars left and right are of no danger to me. This is where filter would really improve our safety.
4) Stay defensive, let the idiots have the small wins.
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To add to this, In all my years of street riding I find the safest technique is to be faster than the other cars, especially on a dense highway. Trying to be cautious by sitting behind one of the slower moving vehicles with cars passing all around you is asking for trouble. There are so many more variables out of your control when cars are switching lanes around you and/or slamming on their brakes ahead of you. I always keep a steady (and responsible) pace where I'm passing 90% of the vehicles on the road. Being the one approaching other vehicles allows me to see everything and assess everything, putting things much more in my control and giving me a better sense of the traffic flow happening ahead of me. You're a sitting duck if you're one of the slower moving vehicles when on a bike. This doesn't mean riding like a lunatic and zig zagging out of traffic like we've all witnessed before, but hands down from my experience this is one of the most important strategies for safer riding.
 
GreyGhost said:
Very few people would play the long game. In my experience, the majority of the people that buy fast or heavy bikes to start are doing it for the image not the ride and most of them become the statistics. By forcing them to own a less cool bike for a time, most just wouldn't bother riding. Less image-conscious Noobs, less stupid crashes, lower insurance rates for the rest of us. It's not perfect, but it's a start.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for every rider to start on a 125. <500 seems like a reasonable limit where everybody fits and can easily exceed every speed limit in the province. Alternatively, set a hp limit as in a cruiser much less than 750 is normally terrible, but that just opens up the games where bikes get sold with low hp, but well known easy hacks to drastically increase the power.
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Having a restriction like <500cc until M does make sense. However, would it solve the issue? It should decrease the number of collisions but I'm not sure that it will prevent even 50% of the accidents with new riders.. It is just possible get into a bad collision even on 250cc.. people get seriously hurt even on bicycles! If someone has e.g. a grom but line splits in heavy downtown traffic then there is a big chance that this person will be involved in the collision earlier or later..

I guess it should be a combination of lic rules changes, education changes and public campaigns (e.g. cooperation with FortNine youtube channel to create more educational videos in the same style as their other videos).

In addition, I know it is crazy even to think about something like this but I would love if all the companies which offer training courses will have to do e.g. free (or very cheap) 30mins refresher courses on each weekend morning in May/June if they want to be able to do certification trainings. It doesn't mean that these companies need to lose money, they can offer e.g. for $200 to continue the refresher course after the free session for a couple of hours with more advanced exercises.

I hope that many people would attend the free course (maybe even just to meet with other riders) and many of them will buy extended version as well (I would do it every year). Of course, this is "bring your own bike" courses. Yes, 30mins is a very short training but if people will just practice emergency braking then it would be already good, no?

^ this sounds crazy, but tbh, I can see some good ways how these "free refreshers" can make money if implemented properly and they can improve safety on the roads
 
Another crazy idea. Maybe we as a community, we can start hosting such an event? There is a big parking lot near CAA Centre which hosts a lot of auto-x events. I might be able to find a way for us as a community to get hold of it for a day on some weekend. It shouldn't be too expensive and it might be enough if e.g. participants will contribute $20 to the event. At the same time, I'm not qualified to be an instructor by any means but I'm sure that there are many people who can do this job.

Maybe if we want to make things better then we need to start doing it ourselves? Yes, such an event is a drop in the sea but it can be a start.

@Mad Mike, as far as I remember, you might have connections with some insurance companies. Maybe they would like to be involved in it (e.g. provide insurance for the event)?
 
To add to this, In all my years of street riding I find the safest technique is to be faster than the other cars, especially on a dense highway.
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That squares with other studies. Humans motion detect and if you are not moving relative to other vehicles you become invisible.

Greenplane you are dreaming...most riders don't get enough seat time as it is - no one is giving up weekend time to fool around in a parking lot.
 
MacDoc said:
That squares with other studies. Humans motion detect and if you are not moving relative to other vehicles you become invisible.

Greenplane you are dreaming...most riders don't get enough seat time as it is - no one is giving up weekend time to fool around in a parking lot.
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I guess you are right.. but it would be nice if dreams come true and people would come to a social + riding event
 
MacDoc said:
you need to get out more ;)....Pennsylvania is calling
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heh, not sure about Pennsylvania but there are a lot of social events around.. however, I was thinking that it would be cool to add an educational/riding aspect to it. I really like how auto-x events got very popular and attracted a lot of ex-street drivers to compete and learn in a safe environment for cheap
 
MacDoc said:
That squares with other studies. Humans motion detect and if you are not moving relative to other vehicles you become invisible.

Greenplane you are dreaming...most riders don't get enough seat time as it is - no one is giving up weekend time to fool around in a parking lot.
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That works right up until you run into one of those lights that are designed to slow/stop traffic, so as to give people downstream time to turn left.

What I try and do is get ahead quickly, and then allow the traffic to catch up, which might be just as bad in some cases. At least then, those behind me have had a chance to see me through the front windshield.

GreenPlane said:
heh, not sure about Pennsylvania but there are a lot of social events around.. however, I was thinking that it would be cool to add an educational/riding aspect to it. I really like how auto-x events got very popular and attracted a lot of ex-street drivers to compete and learn in a safe environment for cheap
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Much of what you described could be done on your own. Go to an empty parking lot and practice what you learned on the course. You can use the lines as guides.
 
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