Right on Red when Opposite Direction has Left Turn Arrow

[PLau]

Most of the reason I honk isn't because my life was necessarily in imminent danger, it's too try to get them to realize they've cut me off and have done something wrong so they are more careful next time so that next time isn't the time that results in a crashed vehicle and injuries to me or anyone else. Of course they probably just think I'm the crazy ******* on a motorcycle / driving an old sports car that likes to honk at people for no reason. So many people on the road are clueless of what they've done wrong.

A bit off topic, but...

One thing to note is that there are a lot of people that are messed in the head especially around where I live and think it's appropriate to brake check or intentionally drive slowly when they get honked at. That thought generally runs through my head before I hit the horn when not absolutely necessary when I'm on the bike. The road rage is real in Vaughan especially the one ones in giant pickup trucks.... >.<

 

[Baggsy]

Rule One: Don't hit anything.

Rule Two: Don't get hit.

Rule Three: Be predictable.

Rule One point five for motorcycles: Don't fall off.

Rule Four: Red means stop, Yellow means stop if you can, Green means go.

Rule Five: Give the right of way to emergency vehicles.

Rule Six: Keep Right except to pass.

Rule Seven: Pass quickly and get back over.

To me, this falls under rule four, then rule one and two. Stop for the red light, don't hit anything or get hit as you proceed.

Too many times I've had someone force me to slam on the brakes to allow them to violate my right of way, as they attempted to violate rule two.

 

[Joe Bass]

Yes I did say it was illegal, based on what I was told. But it seems that I am incorrect on that point. My bad. Should have checked myself before I wrecked the thread. ?
And I didn't check any of the links but I also made an assumption that we were referring to entering a single lane road.
Also, as @plau stated, it's pretty much req2in Vaughan to make a left turn into the right lane and a right turn into the left lane. I'm trying to not get too worked up about this ish anymore. My bp is too high as it is. I need some ice cream.

Sent from a Samsung Galaxy far, far away using Tapatalk

 

[Boots]

How about on a road with two lanes going the same direction ? Is that okay or no? I'm asking because I've had a couple times of people going on their advance green from the left lane to a mid turn lane switch to my lane or whatever. Who would be at fault there assuming I turn into my lane and he does not?

Can someone address this?

 

[unL33T]

Can someone address this?

In my opinion, since you turned into your proper lane and the other person crossed his lane, into yours, I would say he is making a turn, followed by a lane change (although he did them very quickly in succession). As such I would consider this to fall under 10 (4) of the fault determination rules.

According to the HTA, if you are making a right turn, you must turn into the right lane:

Right turn at intersection

(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).

And same with left turn:

Left turn, where multiple lanes

(7) Despite subsection (6), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a left-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the left into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (7).

Also, on the topic of making a left while someone makes a right on red, the person going right may actually have right of way as per this clause, which is stupid:

Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle

(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).

Even the fact that you can turn left in front of someone as long as they are able to stop, is dumb. You are essentially legally allowed to cut people off as long as they are able to avoid hitting you. At least that's how I read that.

Off topic but I also found this one and thought it was total bunk:

So someone can try to pass you, in an intersection, mid turn, and you will still be assigned some fault (which hurts your rates the same as 100% at fault).

 

[griff2]

Off topic but I also found this one and thought it was total bunk:

So someone can try to pass you, in an intersection, mid turn, and you will still be assigned some fault (which hurts your rates the same as 100% at fault).

25% or less at-fault in a collision has no effect on your rates. It will only affect your deductible if you have collision, and the portion of damages which you will pay out of your pocket.

 

[unL33T]

25% or less at-fault in a collision has no effect on your rates. It will only affect your deductible if you have collision, and the portion of damages which you will pay out of your pocket.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Emefef]

If your light is red, and you're turning right, you must come to a stop and you can turn when it can be done safely. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. Whether oncoming traffic is turning left legally or not, whether there are pedestrians crossing legally or not, or whether the cross traffic is still coming through after their light turned...none of it matters. If it's not safe, you can't turn. Sure, the fault for any collision may rest predominantly with the other driver, but if you turned on a red light when it wasn't safe to do so, you've broken the law as well. The test then simply becomes a test of reasonableness. Should you have been able to reasonably believe it was safe? Tough argument if you can see a vehicle turning left - legally or not.

 

[H4x0rz]

People turning right on red do not have right of way under any circumstance. They arrive at the red light (while signalling a right turn), then wait to proceed until it is clear.

Technically false. When facing a red light with left turn advance and you are making a right turn you cannot proceed until the arrow disappears or you are facing a green light.

HTA 144
Green arrow
(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow

Just not well known, or for that matter enforced.

 

[unL33T]

Technically false. When facing a red light with left turn advance and you are making a right turn you cannot proceed until the arrow disappears or you are facing a green light.

HTA 144
Green arrow
(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow

Just not well known, or for that matter enforced.

Yes I mentioned this already but there is a clause that makes it not apply if there are multiple lanes which states you only need to obey signals that apply to your lane. I'd find it but no time right now.

 

[Emefef]

Technically false. When facing a red light with left turn advance and you are making a right turn you cannot proceed until the arrow disappears or you are facing a green light.

HTA 144
Green arrow
(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow

Just not well known, or for that matter enforced.

I read Kestrel's post with the simpler interpretation that if you have a red light, you don't have the right of way. If there was a green arrow displayed, I would NOT consider the right turning driver to have a red light, because there is no requirement to stop at all.

 

[H4x0rz]

I read Kestrel's post with the simpler interpretation that if you have a red light, you don't have the right of way. If there was a green arrow displayed, I would consider the right turning driver to have a red light, because there is no requirement to stop at all.

I interpret it as if u are facing a red circular light with a green arrow facing a specific direction you may ONLY proceed in the direction of the arrow.

From that excerpt of the Ontario hta and I quote "may proceed ONLY to follow direction shown by the arrow".

So in other words left advance means u can only go left. Unless if the light is green with a left advance.

Cheers.

 

[Baggsy]

Here's what I do.

If I know the intersection well and that most people won't want to be in the right lane, I will stop first,
then creep around the corner and find a gap, even if there are three lanes.

If it's an unknown intersection or one with a quick right lane to a shop, entrance or on-ramp, I wait while the left turn people go.
Because I'm not threatening to sideswipe them, they tend to clear the intersection much faster than if I was a threat.
The only exception would be if I see a big gap that was intended for me to fill. I normally catch up all of those people in a few seconds anyways.

I look out my left window as I creep forward to see the left turn arrow and it's duration.

Why do people want to turn right when there is a left green arrow the other way?

Usually, two factors: pedestrians, and impatience.

Pedestrians get a don't walk signal while the left turn arrow is in effect, so if someone can sneak a right in, they won't have to wait for all the pedestrians.

People habitually try to make up time while traveling, they see it as time wasted.

I'm still impatient, but I try to have a bigger perspective. Sitting in line at the reporting centre, and waiting for my vehicle to get repaired really, really sucks.

 

[Emefef]

I read Kestrel's post with the simpler interpretation that if you have a red light, you don't have the right of way. If there was a green arrow displayed, I would NOT consider the right turning driver to have a red light, because there is no requirement to stop at all.

OOPS! I should stop using quick reply and read my posts. Missed NOT.

 

[Boots]

Personally I make the right because I'm afraid of the person who thinks these are freebie turns behind me and they come in with full speed very close to rear ending me.

Otherwise if it was just me and no one behind, I'd wait it out

 

[griff2]

I interpret it as if u are facing a red circular light with a green arrow facing a specific direction you may ONLY proceed in the direction of the arrow.

From that excerpt of the Ontario hta and I quote "may proceed ONLY to follow direction shown by the arrow".

So in other words left advance means u can only go left. Unless if the light is green with a left advance.

Cheers.

The following section precedes the part you speak of.

(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10).​

In most cases these days, that left turn signal you speak of would apply to only to the left-most turn or through lane. Even if it applied to a right-most lane from which a right-on-red turn would ordinarily be made, unless there is a "no right turn on red light" sign, you would still be compliant if you first stopped and yielded to other traffic before making your right turn on red.

 

[hedo2002]

The following section precedes the part you speak of.

(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10).​

In most cases these days, that left turn signal you speak of would apply to only to the left-most turn or through lane. Even if it applied to a right-most lane from which a right-on-red turn would ordinarily be made, unless there is a "no right turn on red light" sign, you would still be compliant if you first stopped and yielded to other traffic before making your right turn on red.

No he has it correct, in the section he referred to, and his intrepetation, which is the right hand land is facing a circular red signal, therefore they are required to come to a full stop and only proceed when "safe to do so" He, nor the section he quoted, states that you must remain stopped until you get a green circular signal. Therefore, you are simply confirming what he and the relevant section he posted states.

The only exception to that rule is where there is, (at very few intersections), either an advanced or delayed green arrow which points to the right, Sometimes found at intersections of one way roads.

 

[Joe Bass]

The one thing to note, as previously stated, is that in the multiple lane scenerio, imo 50% of the time the left lane turner is entering the right lane...idgaf when I'm in my truck, but on the bike...

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[terfed]

Assuming you're on a 2 lane road and the left turner actually turns into the lane they're supposed to go on, then it would be clear for the right turner, but we all know that most drivers don't know how to do that.

3 lane road just makes it easy, but again, some left turners need all 3 lanes to complete their turn for some reason.

In theory, it would be safe for both drivers to make a left and right turn (assuming they're not larger vehicles like a bus or a truck) on a 2+ lane road. Then again, do you want to trust that the other driver won't take it wide..? - Go when it's clear or when there's a big enough gap in between turning traffic so that you won't collide even if they decide to take it wide (after stopping of course).

I had a nice kind gentleman curse me out when I made a right on a red with 3 lanes... He seemed to be upset that I violated his right of way.... I can appreciate that he has right of way for his left lane and may change lanes when it is clear to do so across 3 lanes during turn???


during the turn, he came across 3 lanes of traffic to my driver side door....... proceeded to curse me out...

I believe that this is an "unsafe lane change" on his part (WB from Britannia Rd to SB mavis rd)... it may be even 4 lanes SB mavis below Britannia. dedicated rt turn lane..His hard to right was to enter Canadian Tire but then proceeded to follow me about 4 more entrances before passing into the right turn lane I was in enthusiastically asking "where did I get my drivers license?" while honking and swearing.....

Man I love driving in Brampton and Mississauga!

terfed

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I had a nice kind gentleman curse me out when I made a right on a red with 3 lanes... He seemed to be upset that I violated his right of way.... I can appreciate that he has right of way for his left lane and may change lanes when it is clear to do so across 3 lanes during turn???


during the turn, he came across 3 lanes of traffic to my driver side door....... proceeded to curse me out...

I believe that this is an "unsafe lane change" on his part (WB from Britannia Rd to SB mavis rd)... it may be even 4 lanes SB mavis below Britannia. dedicated rt turn lane..His hard to right was to enter Canadian Tire but then proceeded to follow me about 4 more entrances before passing into the right turn lane I was in enthusiastically asking "where did I get my drivers license?" while honking and swearing.....

Man I love driving in Brampton and Mississauga!

terfed

Correct; that is an unsafe lane change. Unfortunately the basic rules of the road are rarely, if ever enforced. It's not as easy to prove in court as is speeding.