Right on Red when Opposite Direction has Left Turn Arrow

[Joe Bass]

Really eh. That's the kind of take it to court evidence I was looking for.

Really man?!?

Lol
I wasn't aware you taking it court. Also, not saying it actually is illegal, just saying that was told to me. I can totally see how it would make sense on a turn to a one lane road.
Too many people just say eff it and turn whenever tf they want.
Just yesterday, 4 way stop. I'm third. My turn to proceed with my left and a guy opposite rolls the stop for a right and cuts me off. He almost got a Honda tattoo on the side of his Range.
Yeah. That's how I roll. ?

Sent from a Samsung Galaxy far, far away using Tapatalk

 

[unL33T]

See this is why I am confused. It only makes sense that the guy with the green light would have right of way but I can find all kinds of stuff saying that not only is it not illegal to make the right, the person with the green doesn't even have right of way.

 

[SweetOnion]

Lol
I wasn't aware you taking it court. Also, not saying it actually is illegal, just saying that was told to me. I can totally see how it would make sense on a turn to a one lane road.
Too many people just say eff it and turn whenever tf they want.
Just yesterday, 4 way stop. I'm third. My turn to proceed with my left and a guy opposite rolls the stop for a right and cuts me off. He almost got a Honda tattoo on the side of his Range.
Yeah. That's how I roll.

Sent from a Samsung Galaxy far, far away using Tapatalk

I am only speaking to the point that it is in fact impossible to determine if oncoming traffic has the advanced green. There is no way to see it. Therefore you fall back on red light procedures. If it is safe to make the right turn into your own lane then do so.

I totally get the hate on no stop right turners. Don't get me wrong. I just also hate 3 lane wide left turners. Or rights. **** it, I hate everyone but myself and my riding buddies.

 

[unL33T]

It isn't impossible to tell. If you have red you can look at the cross light. If it is also red the left turn arrow is either lit or about to light. If this is the case, and there are cars waiting to turn left or in the process of turning left, don't go. The light only lasts a few seconds anyway although after it changes pedestrians start crossing which is probably why people rush it.

I completely agree about the wide turners though. On that same stretch I don't even go wide on u-turns. Left lane to left lane. I understand not all vehicles can do that, though.

Another pet peeve of mine is the people that continue turning left even after the left turn signal goes red but I've seen two marked cop cruisers do that this week just because they didn't want to wait for the next cycle.

 

[Baggsy]

See this is why I am confused. It only makes sense that the guy with the green light would have right of way but I can find all kinds of stuff saying that not only is it not illegal to make the right, the person with the green doesn't even have right of way.

You looking at court case arguments or actual convictions?

A friend had someone who rear ended him at a red light, try to make a case that it was somehow his fault.

 

[daught]

How about on a road with two lanes going the same direction ? Is that okay or no? I'm asking because I've had a couple times of people going on their advance green from the left lane to a mid turn lane switch to my lane or whatever. Who would be at fault there assuming I turn into my lane and he does not?

+1 who's at fault?

 

[Baggsy]

I am only speaking to the point that it is in fact impossible to determine if oncoming traffic has the advanced green. There is no way to see it. Therefore you fall back on red light procedures. If it is safe to make the right turn into your own lane then do so.

I totally get the hate on no stop right turners. Don't get me wrong. I just also hate 3 lane wide left turners. Or rights. **** it, I hate everyone but myself and my riding buddies.

You have to realize that the leftmost turner often carries too much speed into the turn, and forces the person going into the middle lane wide.

That's why it isn't safe to proceed.

Oft times your direction will also have an advanced green if there is someone in the left turn lane.
At least around here.

 

[Bagman]

... that it is in fact illegal to make a right when opposing traffic has an advanced green....

I'd have to dig up the HTA to formally dispute this, but on the surface of this statement there is a gross lack of logic for this to be true. How can the opposing right-turning traffic see that they have an advanced left green arrow. They can't. Rather, I imagine the right-turning traffic should come to complete stop and yield right-of-way. The other rule is that both left and right-turning traffic should stick to their lanes.

 

[SweetOnion]

It isn't impossible to tell. If you have red you can look at the cross light. If it is also red the left turn arrow is either lit or about to light.

How do you know that all the lights aren't red and the traffic signal is malfunctioning?

There is NO WAY to 100% determine if the advance is on, or not, when it's not your advance.

I have a Toronto PS Father in law that I can ask if anyone cares

You have to realize that the leftmost turner often carries too much speed into the turn, and forces the person going into the middle lane wide.

That's why it isn't safe to proceed.

Oft times your direction will also have an advanced green if there is someone in the left turn lane.
At least around here.

That means they screwed up and broke the law. You're not allowed to run wide and push someone out, unless you're RACIN!!!! Refer to original statement that if everyone turned into their own lane and then made proper lane changes, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place

 

[SweetOnion]

I'd have to dig up the HTA to formally dispute this, but on the surface of this statement there is a gross lack of logic for this to be true. How can the opposing right-turning traffic see that they have an advanced left green arrow. They can't. Rather, I imagine the right-turning traffic should come to complete stop and yield right-of-way. The other rule is that both left and right-turning traffic should stick to their lanes.

Hold on Bagman.... don't use logic. The witch hunters are out.

 

[Joe Bass]

I'd have to dig up the HTA to formally dispute this, but on the surface of this statement there is a gross lack of logic for this to be true. How can the opposing right-turning traffic see that they have an advanced left green arrow. They can't. Rather, I imagine the right-turning traffic should come to complete stop and yield right-of-way. The other rule is that both left and right-turning traffic should stick to their lanes.

Ok. I'm not sure if we're all thinking about this the same way....
I am at a red light. Cross traffic comes to a stop. Opposing traffic starts going straight and / or turning. My light is still red. Either they are all running a red, or they have an advanced green.
But the point is that it looks like we all agree that if I'm turning right [edit- on a red] I should stop, and turn right when it's clear.
Sometimes this writing rather having a talking conversation causes confusion and lacks clarity.
But like was said earlier, I hate everyone anyway. ?

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[SweetOnion]

But like was said earlier, I hate everyone anyway.

Me too. The rest of the post you made that I didn't quote was bang on. but, screw quoting that. I would rather spend 10 seconds clicking around trying to delete it than make it seem like I am getting along with someone from the Internet.

 

[unL33T]

How do you know that all the lights aren't red and the traffic signal is malfunctioning?

There is NO WAY to 100% determine if the advance is on, or not, when it's not your advance.

If the light is malfunctioning you should probably wait more than 5 seconds to determine that it has failed and decide to proceed anyway. I've also never seen one fail with solid red. All the failures I've seen they either go out or flash red.

Also, like was mentioned, the left turn on your side, at least in this situation, is also lit at the same time. If your light is red, the left turn on your side is green, and the cross light is red, there is a VERY good chance people on the other side have a green left turn light.

You don't need to know 100%, anyway. I was always taught that right on red is an exception to the rule, not a right. So if you're going to do it, it's up to you to make sure it's safe before you go, which means making sure there's not other traffic. If you have any doubt that it might not be safe, you don't go. Like I said, the light only lasts a few seconds, anyway. You can't wait that long?

I do understand that yes, sometimes you might miss one of those indications, but this is happening every single day at multiple intersections on my way home. I only make the left on one of them and it happens to me almost every day. There was one day this week it did not happen to me. Then I see it happen to at least 1-3 other people on my drive home at different intersections. This is far too frequent if people were actually making any effort to determine if it was safe to make the right.

Your arguments could be applied to any intersection situation. Why not just run a red? For all you know the lights have malfunctioned no way to be 100% sure. Wouldn't want to wait a minute to figure that out. Why not just make a right on red while cross traffic is active? For all you know they have a red light. No way to be 100% sure. Why not drive out of parking lots into fast traffic, cutting people off, there is a chance they were going to stop, after all.

 

[PLau]

**** it, we should just follow Quebec and say no right turns on red if it causes this much confusion.

Right turners on red wait until their path is clear before proceeding and making the turn. If there is a left turner in the middle of the intersection in motion because they have an left turn light, this would mean the right turner's path is not clear and therefore should not proceed on a 1 lane road.

Assuming you're on a 2 lane road and the left turner actually turns into the lane they're supposed to go on, then it would be clear for the right turner, but we all know that most drivers don't know how to do that.

3 lane road just makes it easy, but again, some left turners need all 3 lanes to complete their turn for some reason.

In theory, it would be safe for both drivers to make a left and right turn (assuming they're not larger vehicles like a bus or a truck) on a 2+ lane road. Then again, do you want to trust that the other driver won't take it wide..? - Go when it's clear or when there's a big enough gap in between turning traffic so that you won't collide even if they decide to take it wide (after stopping of course).

 

[unL33T]

**** it, we should just follow Quebec and say no right turns on red if it causes this much confusion.

lol actually my understanding is that most of the "no right on red" signs are placed because too many people couldn't figure out that they have to do it safely and can't just drive into traffic, causing accidents, so they prohibit it at that intersection. Not sure where I picked that up, though, so I'm probably just making it up. Makes sense to me.

 

[SweetOnion]

If the light is malfunctioning you should probably wait more than 5 seconds to determine that it has failed and decide to proceed anyway. I've also never seen one fail with solid red. All the failures I've seen they either go out or flash red.

Also, like was mentioned, the left turn on your side, at least in this situation, is also lit at the same time. If your light is red, the left turn on your side is green, and the cross light is red, there is a VERY good chance people on the other side have a green left turn light.

You don't need to know 100%, anyway. I was always taught that right on red is an exception to the rule, not a right. So if you're going to do it, it's up to you to make sure it's safe before you go, which means making sure there's not other traffic. If you have any doubt that it might not be safe, you don't go. Like I said, the light only lasts a few seconds, anyway. You can't wait that long?

I do understand that yes, sometimes you might miss one of those indications, but this is happening every single day at multiple intersections on my way home. I only make the left on one of them and it happens to me almost every day. There was one day this week it did not happen to me. Then I see it happen to at least 1-3 other people on my drive home at different intersections. This is far too frequent if people were actually making any effort to determine if it was safe to make the right.

Your arguments could be applied to any intersection situation. Why not just run a red? For all you know the lights have malfunctioned no way to be 100% sure. Wouldn't want to wait a minute to figure that out. Why not just make a right on red while cross traffic is active? For all you know they have a red light. No way to be 100% sure. Why not drive out of parking lots into fast traffic, cutting people off, there is a chance they were going to stop, after all.

You must not have very much driving experience, age, or both.

Both lefts are not always illuminated advanced, at the same time. Haven't you ever seen it when the side with the left starts to allow straight through traffic going in their same direction a green light as well?? Well guess what, if that is the traffic that is coming TOWARDS you in the opposite direction, your lights are ALL RED!!

Considering you are the person who started this thread, and don't like the answers, perhaps you should write a big long ridiculous reply to yourself. Ask yourself why you're polling the Internet on a topic you could have answered yourself by searching the highway traffic act, or even the Driving handbook.

If some person that you know, family or friend, happened to teach you that it was "illegal" to turn right when another side of the intersection has an advanced green, I'm sorry to tell you that you will just have to ADMIT IT TO YOURSELF THAT THEY ARE INCORRECT!

What you are saying is that if a left advance came up, and there is NO TRAFFIC IN SIGHT that it is illegal to turn right. Lets just ponder that for a minute.

 

[PLau]

lol actually my understanding is that most of the "no right on red" signs are placed because too many people couldn't figure out that they have to do it safely and can't just drive into traffic, causing accidents, so they prohibit it at that intersection. Not sure where I picked that up, though, so I'm probably just making it up. Makes sense to me.

Some are placed there cause the intersection runs through a blind curve for the right turner where the person turning right wouldn't be able to see traffic at speed far enough to be able to make the turn safely without the chance of impeding traffic.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7807...4!1s-eN313jkaDZNETh8z5mQAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here for example, cross-traffic coming up a hill off a curve in the road. Right turner doesn't have enough viability to know if theres a driver coming around the corner at speed limit (60km/h) and get up to that speed.

 

[unL33T]

You must not have very much driving experience, age, or both.

I'm 31 and have been driving since I was 14. I have taken 3 driving courses and 2 riding courses.

Both lefts are not always illuminated advanced, at the same time. Haven't you ever seen it when the side with the left starts to allow straight through traffic going in their same direction a green light as well?? Well guess what, if that is the traffic that is coming TOWARDS you in the opposite direction, your lights are ALL RED!!

I never said all intersections were like this. I said this one in particular was. In the case you are describing, if you see the other traffic proceeding then that is a good indication that they have an advanced green. If there are cars waiting to turn left you should not proceed with a right turn as that would be unsafe. If there are no cars turning or waiting to turn, go ahead and make your right on red as there is no safety reason preventing you from doing so.

Considering you are the person who started this thread, and don't like the answers, perhaps you should write a big long ridiculous reply to yourself. Ask yourself why you're polling the Internet on a topic you could have answered yourself by searching the highway traffic act, or even the Driving handbook.

Actually some people agreed with me. The HTA says you should only make the turn when safe. As does the handbook. I Googled this before I made the thread. It wasn't entirely clear.

If some person that you know, family or friend, happened to teach you that it was "illegal" to turn right when another side of the intersection has an advanced green, I'm sorry to tell you that you will just have to ADMIT IT TO YOURSELF THAT THEY ARE INCORRECT!

I never said it was illegal. That was Joe. I do not in the slightest think it is illegal. I think it is legal as long as it is safe to proceed. Driving in front of people that are making a left turn is not safe, in my opinion. I didn't learn to drive from anyone I know. I learned from driving schools and other training.

What you are saying is that if a left advance came up, and there is NO TRAFFIC IN SIGHT that it is illegal to turn right. Lets just ponder that for a minute.

Like I said, I never said it was illegal. I didn't even say you shouldn't do it. I said you should not do it if you can determine that the other side has the green to turn (either as a complete advanced green or just a left turn indication) and there are cars waiting to turn left, as they are going to proceed at any second and driving in front of them would be unsafe.

From the HTA:

HTA 144
Green arrow
(14) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only or in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed only to follow the direction shown by the arrow

That tells me if your lane has a green arrow, right on red isn't allowed. Although I did read something about how this may not apply unless the light specifically applies to your lane.
Also from the HTA:

Exception – turn

(19) Despite subsection (18) and subject to subsection (14), a driver, after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard, may,

(a) turn to the right; or
(b) turn to the left from a one-way street into a one-way street,
without a green indication being shown. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (19).

That bolded section indicates to me that if traffic is turning, or about to turn (lawfully approaching), you can't go because it wouldn't be safe. But maybe I'm interpreting that wrong.

From the handbook:

I guess this one says you can go if they haven't started turning yet (since I suppose the way would technically be clear, even though it is seconds from being not clear), but I've had people do it while I'm half way through my turn.

I also checked the fault determination rules but I couldn't really find anything about this particular situation so it would likely be 50/50 fault, unless I missed something.

No need to get worked up about it.

 

[SweetOnion]

I'm not worked up about it... I am just saying that it is not actually possible to determine that an oncoming lane has an advanced green or not. Either way, yes, you're correct in that you didn't say it was illegal and that it was Joe. I guess there was just some type of mutual agreement between you both it seemed, on the topic of legality since you defended the fact that it was or was not possible to know about the advanced turn.

Unfortunately, the real lesson here is that the only way to make anything happen with this is to actually hit one of the stupid people cutting you off.

One other point that was missed as the conversation has spiraled was the fact you are talking about doing this onto a single lane (each direction) road. There is no opportunity for both cars to enter the roadway from opposite directions... physically, legally, or otherwise... Sure, right turner can beat someone into the road, but if the left turning car is already in motion, you are a huge dick for making that right, and you are going to be found at fault for sure, due to the fact that you entered the intersection with a red light shown, and were in a collision with a vehicle that had green.

Imagine if the guy went to cut you off and you locked the front up and crashed your bike? That would suck so bad, and you would be found 100% at fault by your insurance company, unless you had video evidence most likely... and even then, who knows.

 

[unL33T]

I'm not worked up about it... I am just saying that it is not actually possible to determine that an oncoming lane has an advanced green or not. Either way, yes, you're correct in that you didn't say it was illegal and that it was Joe. I guess there was just some type of mutual agreement between you both it seemed, on the topic of legality since you defended the fact that it was or was not possible to know about the advanced turn.

Unfortunately, the real lesson here is that the only way to make anything happen with this is to actually hit one of the stupid people cutting you off.

One other point that was missed as the conversation has spiraled was the fact you are talking about doing this onto a single lane (each direction) road. There is no opportunity for both cars to enter the roadway from opposite directions... physically, legally, or otherwise... Sure, right turner can beat someone into the road, but if the left turning car is already in motion, you are a huge dick for making that right, and you are going to be found at fault for sure, due to the fact that you entered the intersection with a red light shown, and were in a collision with a vehicle that had green.

Imagine if the guy went to cut you off and you locked the front up and crashed your bike? That would suck so bad, and you would be found 100% at fault by your insurance company, unless you had video evidence most likely... and even then, who knows.

I still think it's quite possible to tell (maybe not 100% but pretty close) but the rest of this post I agree with.

And yes, if both roads are multiple lanes everyone can make their turns at the same time, presuming they turn from / to the correct lanes (which doesn't actually happen very often in most of Ontario).

Most of the reason I honk isn't because my life was necessarily in imminent danger, it's too try to get them to realize they've cut me off and have done something wrong so they are more careful next time so that next time isn't the time that results in a crashed vehicle and injuries to me or anyone else. Of course they probably just think I'm the crazy ******* on a motorcycle / driving an old sports car that likes to honk at people for no reason. So many people on the road are clueless of what they've done wrong.