Registration leads to confiscation.

[Snobike Mike]

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Figures don't lie, but liars can figure.

That is the foundation for the anti-gunners for sure.

Now I'm no Professor but here's some figures I dug up on my own. Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America at 2.7 million, behind only Mexico City, New York and LA yet it has an unfathomably low murder rates when compared to US cities less then a third its size. But let's compare it to Chicago. Both have a population of approx 2.7 million, and are in a similar geographic location/climate

Toronto had 57 homicides in 2013, 22 by shooting, which works out to be around 38%.

Chicago had 448 homicides in 2013, 372 by shooting. That's 83%

A Homicide in Chicago is also Nearly 8x more likely by those numbers. I would image the right to own and carry firearms has something to do with that.

Well actually, since Chicago is a "gun free" zone that would simply prove that it's only the criminals who have the guns and since they don't care about any laws, including those for carry, discharge or murder, it's not the law abiding whom are following the laws, nor the guns themselves, in the gun free zone that are the problem.

To me it is far more relevant to compare a country with anti-gun laws to a country without, as the guns must cross through an international boarders to get to a city such as Toronto for example. The guns are everywhere in the states, so it stands to reason unarmed civilians will be more at risk than those who are armed. Making state to state comparison relatively pointless since anyone can still buy the guns..... unless of course you're on the NRA Christmas list

The US doesn't have zero gun laws so "anyone" can't just buy guns. Many states have all kinds of gun laws, some like NY and CT are highly restrictive.

I posted in another thread some time ago a high profile study (I actually posted numerous studies, including one commissioned by the Omnipotent Obama which came to a conclusion which was "inconvenient" for his anti-gun agenda) which showed, (And it quoted a highly prominent anti-gunner who reluctantly admitted and confirmed), that firearms are used to stop in excess of TWO MILLION violent crimes per year in the US. Why? Cuz when grandma says to those thugs in Detroit, I have a gun, and they say "no you don't" and she pulls the trigger, those punks run like a bunch of scared monkeys.

Of course the anti's don't want those facts to get in the way of their lying/socialist/government control of the people agenda.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

The Detroit incident that Mike was referring to..
[video=youtube;IY7GExKmxsI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY7GExKmxsI[/video]
Btw it's not an "assault rifle".. It's a semi-automatic, pistol caliber carbine. Lots of difference in mechanicals between that and an actual "assault rifle".

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Some other videos on that topic..
[video=youtube;QLhp6OGq2ko]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLhp6OGq2ko[/video]
Again, not an assault rifle lol

 

[FiReSTaRT]

And another life saved from violent criminals...
[video=youtube;gABf9IatSJI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gABf9IatSJI[/video]

 

[FiReSTaRT]

And civilian gun ownership sure put a damper on the Knockout game
[video=youtube;gzptOuQ0M9U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzptOuQ0M9U[/video]

In the US with the general culture being more violent, there's more of a need to use guns to protect yourself and your family.

 

[Neil_V]

lol...ok. It's as close to an Apples to Apples comparison as you're ever going to get. Similar population, geographical location, climate, and demographics. One in a country with guns and the right to own them ingrained in the culture, the other without.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

lol...ok. It's as close to an Apples to Apples comparison as you're ever going to get. Similar population, geographical location, climate, and demographics. One in a country with guns and the right to own them ingrained in the culture, the other without.

Different type of society. We have a more equal society and better social security network, plus a less confrontational culture. That results in less poverty, less desperation borne of it. We have one of the lowest homicide rates in the world and one of the highest gun ownership rates as well. Most of our violent crimes occur in areas with fewer legitimate gun owners, too. Here's one from Turkey lol
[video=youtube;J6gcFPjdwiI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gcFPjdwiI[/video]

Funny part is, all the people in the videos I just posted would have been charged criminally in Canada.

 

[Neil_V]

We have one of the lowest homicide rates in the world and one of the highest gun ownership rates as well. Most of our violent crimes occur in areas with fewer legitimate gun owners, too.

All conjecture. Numbers to back this up? Independant sources please, no State or NRA sponsered "studies" with opinion and bias one way or another. I already know your opinion.
Go find me the numbers to back up your statements. I simply searched to Toronto and Chicago Homicide Statistic. You could at the very least do the same to back up your claims

 

[Neil_V]

On second thought pls don't.. I've had enough.... this is exhausting... white flag in the air.

 

[Snobike Mike]

All conjecture. Numbers to back this up? Independant sources please, no State or NRA sponsered "studies" with opinion and bias one way or another. I already know your opinion.
Go find me the numbers to back up your statements. I simply searched to Toronto and Chicago Homicide Statistic. You could at the very least do the same to back up your claims

I already posted a CCW study showing inverse relationship between CCW and gun murders.

Have a read at John Lott's More Guns less Crime.

Then read Obama's sponsored study after Sandy Hook that came to an "inconvenient" truth that didn't quite fit what Obama has hoping for.

 

[Neil_V]

^ did you even read the entire Paragraph? Or did you stop at Conjecture?

Regardless you win... please take comfort in the fact that you reign supreme over this topic on a motorcycle forum, and I shall take comfort in the fact that I live in a country where the mojority of the population believes in the effectiveness of gun control. How's that for conjecture?

Good Day

 

[inreb]

If you think it's difficult for a criminal to get a gun on the cheap in Toronto, you're sadly mistaken. Getting an illegal gun is a lot easier and cheaper than going through the licensing process. It's our overall non-violent culture that is keeping our violent crime rates down. We just have fewer violent criminals. Our homicide rate is lower than most countries with similar gun ownership rates.

On the other hand, the US culture is very individualistic and confrontational. That leads to a greater likelihood of using violence to resolve disputes and their murder rates reflect that. If they didn't have access to factory guns, they could always develop a cottage industry like the Philippines or Pakistan

Well if that's the case maybe I don't see how it's helpful to post a bunch of US based videos. So now in Canada we need to arm up in case of home invasion and the like? That's why those vids were posted? Of course there's crime but everything being a balancing act, for the greater good, isn't it better to keep guns very much restricted? But hey if you're armed, maybe I should be armed too. I know you're a great guy but is the other guy a great guy?
Hobby shooters just want to go to gun clubs is all. This is the only sport I can think of whose primary equipment is specifically designed to kill. Makes one wonder how and why people pick their pastimes.
But wait, what about the government running all over the people? We need the government afraid of the people. When was the last time a politician was harmed? I don't think they're scared. 250 yr. history of this great country and security for most politicians is still very lax. But lets arm up, they might pass a law we don't like. I see the US has a great political system based on that viewpoint.
I understand about the hobby end of the gun culture and hunters/farmers so I feel bad for those nice folk to get caught up in all this but all this paranoid talk about keeping the gov and criminals at bay should be reserved for the other side of the border where they've painted themselves into that corner.

 

[Snobike Mike]

^ did you even read the entire Paragraph? Or did you stop at Conjecture?

Regardless you win... please take comfort in the fact that you reign supreme over this topic on a motorcycle forum, and I shall take comfort in the fact that I live in a country where the mojority of the population believes in the effectiveness of gun control. How's that for conjecture?

Good Day

Well, it's actually not about winning at all. It's really about logic, reason, fact, and then acting accordingly . If you believe that gun control works then you clearly are missing on some (or all) of the logic, facts and reasoning.

P.S., The current majority government got rid of the LGR, something Cukier and her crew were so proud of because somehow it would "save lives". Well, since the LGR was eliminated the streets haven't exactly been running with blood.

P.P.S - I suspect that your anti-gun position really means you are actually pro-gun, but only for the "trust-worthy" bunch that are the Police and Gubment

P.P.P.S I did read your whole paragraph, and then referred to/posted 3 sources. I guess your answer is they are biased because they don't support your position. Oh well.

 

[mmmnaked]

Well if that's the case maybe I don't see how it's helpful to post a bunch of US based videos. So now in Canada we need to arm up in case of home invasion and the like? That's why those vids were posted? Of course there's crime but everything being a balancing act, for the greater good, isn't it better to keep guns very much restricted? But hey if you're armed, maybe I should be armed too. I know you're a great guy but is the other guy a great guy?
Hobby shooters just want to go to gun clubs is all. This is the only sport I can think of whose primary equipment is specifically designed to kill. Makes one wonder how and why people pick their pastimes.
But wait, what about the government running all over the people? We need the government afraid of the people. When was the last time a politician was harmed? I don't think they're scared. 250 yr. history of this great country and security for most politicians is still very lax. But lets arm up, they might pass a law we don't like. I see the US has a great political system based on that viewpoint.
I understand about the hobby end of the gun culture and hunters/farmers so I feel bad for those nice folk to get caught up in all this but all this paranoid talk about keeping the gov and criminals at bay should be reserved for the other side of the border where they've painted themselves into that corner.

Yes guns are designed to kill and yes they're about the only such thing that's also used for hobby and sport. With that said, there are several million licensed gun owners in Canada with countless millions of guns, yet our firearms homicide rate is extremely low. Doesn't this fact alone demonstrate our ability to be perfectly peaceful and law abiding while owning guns? Does the intended purpose of these objects matter at this point?

Lots of gun owners would disagree with me I'm sure, but Im pretty happy with our gun laws right now. I think they need a bit of tweaking to eliminate paper crime, but on the whole it seems to work pretty well!!!

 

[inreb]

Yes guns are designed to kill and yes they're about the only such thing that's also used for hobby and sport. With that said, there are several million licensed gun owners in Canada with countless millions of guns, yet our firearms homicide rate is extremely low. Doesn't this fact alone demonstrate our ability to be perfectly peaceful and law abiding while owning guns? Does the intended purpose of these objects matter at this point?

Lots of gun owners would disagree with me I'm sure, but Im pretty happy with our gun laws right now. I think they need a bit of tweaking to eliminate paper crime, but on the whole it seems to work pretty well!!!

I'm satisfied with that. I know the original reason for this thread was the confiscation of personal property by an un-elected agency who makes up their own rules. It's unfortunate that's happening and some good comments (imho) were made to that. I think we should stay the course per your second paragraph and not always get caught up in the everybody needs to be armed to be safe because you never know and the gov. needs to be held in check yada yada. That stuff is tough to take lying down. Again, imho.

 

[crankcall]

As probably the only guy in this thread that lives part time in the US southwest in the heart of a gun friendly culture, you cannot compare the US to Canada, on laws, application of laws or ability to acquire guns. The US has state by state rules. Live in NY or CT with some tight regs? drive 30 minutes in any direction and buy anything you'd like. There are no security checks at state borders. Fearing for your life and the "castle" laws means a trip to the station and you sleep in your own bed that night. Here means decades of debt financing your legal defense and a very probable jail term. What happens in the US, middle east or Scandinavia wont effect our laws, getting the Federation of anglers and hunters and sport shooting clubs beating on tables to defend responsible ownership is what needs done. I don't own military styled or modeled guns, its not my thing, but I would stand shoulder to shoulder with any responsible owner that wants one to defend his ability to make choice that should not be illegal.

 

[Neil_V]

P.P.P.S I did read your whole paragraph, and then referred to/posted 3 sources. I guess your answer is they are biased because they don't support your position. Oh well.

Clearly comprehension is your issue then. I asked if FiReSTaRT could produce some independent statistics to support his statement. I'm not particularly interested in reading through the results of a "inconvenient truth about gun control" google search.
You can type any argument you want into google and you'll find plenty of studies to reinforce you personal position. That is the only "fact" you have impressed upon me.

BTW, you have referred to me an anti-gunner numerous times, though I have not once said guns should be banned entirely. Can I attribute this to a comprehension issue as well? My original post in this thread was an attempt to illustrate the difference between limited gun control in the US vs relatively strict gun control in Canada, and it's obvious impact on the Homicide rate, I stand by that argument.

Lots of gun owners would disagree with me I'm sure, but Im pretty happy with our gun laws right now. I think they need a bit of tweaking to eliminate paper crime, but on the whole it seems to work pretty well!!!

+1

As probably the only guy in this thread that lives part time in the US southwest in the heart of a gun friendly culture, you cannot compare the US to Canada, on laws, application of laws or ability to acquire guns. The US has state by state rules. Live in NY or CT with some tight regs? drive 30 minutes in any direction and buy anything you'd like.

This is the point i was making in the last paragraph of my original post straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

 

[mmmnaked]

Actually our gun control isn't THAT strict compared to US, and its downright lax compared with some specific states.

Personally, I firmly believe that gun laws have little to no effect on crime rates. Crime is a social, economic, and very much cultural issue.

 

[Neil_V]

Actually our gun control isn't THAT strict compared to US, and its downright lax compared with some specific states.

Personally, I firmly believe that gun laws have little to no effect on crime rates. Crime is a social, economic, and very much cultural issue.

Please elaborate.

Also I have been referring to homicide rates not crime rates in general, there is a big difference between "Im gonna get me some money from that fool" and "Im gonna kill that motha****a" Guns ultimately make the later easy to achieve don't they?

 

[mmmnaked]

The second part is strictly my own opinion. I've had this debate a thousand times, over many years... heard it all by now, seen all the stats by now. I believe criminal behaviour is exactly that; human behaviour. I don't connect it to law, I tie it to cultural and socioeconomic issues. Are Americans really three times more likely to kill one-another just because they have access to the right tool? I think they're simply more likely to kill eachother because of the state of their cutthroat culture and society. They want it all, they want it fast; land of the free, get rich quick and f* the other guy... in my mind, that is their main problem.

There are lots of guns in Canada, we're just 'nicer' people.

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