Overbearing electronics

[bitzz]

Have you ever experienced an “I’m about to die” scenario?

Yep... but I'm an idiot. AND I know I'm an idiot, and I know idiots do stupid things, and I have lots of practice doing stupid things... and living with the consequences. Being a successful idiot requires practice and training and money. Stupid is expensive (trust me on that one). I am not a life model... DO NOT DO AS I DO, I am a model for what NOT to do. Sucessful idiot's motto: BE prepared... or was that the boy scouts... i was a dumb kid too.
Pretty good at first aid as a result, REALLY good at patching up the bike/car good enough to get back out on the track. You want me in your pit.
Before I stopped drinking, one of my favorite sayings was "hold my beer, WATCH THIS"
Knowing ahead of time you're going to put yourself in life threatening situation INTENTIONALLY is different, yes... but if you're going to ride or drive for that matter, the chances of you putting yourself, or someone else putting you in a life threatening situation goes up considerably, you're putting yourself in those conditions: you should be better trained for it. The problem with driving on the road these days is you really have no idea what's gonna happen next. Ever. So the more different scenarios you practice the better prepared you'll be for what the idiots will throw at you.
I once met a guy that hit a bathtub on the 401 at Weston (that fell off the top of a truck in the next lane) he had no where to go, no room to stop, he hit a bathtub on the 401, doing about 60mph. OUCH...brand new sportster, just folded up the bike.
whatta ya gonna do?
Last one that happened to me was on 33, following a semi, straight clear road. truck hit the brakes, I went into opposite lane to pass, and the reason the truck hit the brakes is a minivan (it's ALWAYS a minivan) decided to pull a uturn from the side of the road in front of the truck. I was about half way up the trailer doing 60mph when I saw the front of the minivan. I swerved left, HAMMERED the throttle. the minivan was about half way into the lane when I went past. If I had even touched the brakes, or had even a nano second of indecision; I would be a smear on the side of that van. (I once took out the C post in a GM van with my shoulder... that was fun) I will admit to questioning my atheist lifestyle at that point, but stayed on the gas.... cuz I'm an idiot
You don't want to hear this, but I think the gas pedal has saved my cookies more often than the brake pedal. Brake pedal has saved more dents, but when it comes to saving MY life, the gas is usually my pedal of choice
I've been in more than one collision where someone did something really stupid and they were lucky that my driving saved THEIR life, and that came with experience... or in another word: practice. I used to drive a lot and YES I am saying you can better at crashing with practice too, after a dozen or so, they're a lot less thrilling... or maybe my serotonin valve is broke

 

[Evoex]

No my point is that we're agreeing with one another without realizing it.

We're each approaching the topic from a different angle, but want the other person to acknowledge the angle we're coming from.

I think I've tried to do that, but because of the emotionality of the safety issue, it gets glossed over in the reply.

"In a controlled environment most riders can outbrake ABS. But yes, in a panic situation ABS is useful.."
"But what if a truck turns left in front of you?"
"Yes, I agree in a panic situation it is useful"
"When your life is on the line, you can't react in time!"
*Le sigh...*

Fair.

Braking distance is probably the most contentious part of ABS but it isn't the important part. The real game changer is control.

 

[MCT]

Not to stir the pot, but I don't believe this to be true.

Parking lot is not a panic situation.

Exactly!

Now let me tell you of a real on-the-road situation and no matter what you do, you could not avoid the following. Back some 20 years ago.

Doing 100 kph on a straight back road with zero traffic, I see this bicyclist in the distance. As I get closer, I move to the center line to give the late 30s to mid 40s rider plenty of room (you never know what they might do...swerve). With no driveways or road to turn into, the idiot does a snap 90 degree turn perpendicular to the road. Zero time, not even a nano-second.

Hard on the front brake, the rear wheel lifts and is airborne (in case someone doesn't know, loading the front tire to increase friction allows for more braking) and I am about to T-bone the idiot. I drop the rear to get steering and whip within a foot of the shoulder between him and the shoulder. This is happening in a fraction of a second.

I stop past him, turn around and give him sh*t. I do not carry collision insurance because I do not have accidents (after 50 years of accident-free worth of driving, I am way ahead), so who was going to pay if I wiped out. The effing bicyclist...really?

And sure enough, I can see the faint black rubber line left by the front tire. Oh and when I got home, I always wipe down the bugs on my bike. Yup, the left edge of my crashbar on my R1150 GSA had rubber on it from his back wheel.

In flying we have a saying, "Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid situations that would require the use of their superior skills", exactly why I have very little use for ABS and the rest of the nanny controls on vehicles. All these nanny controls and we still have accidents...damn you cannot cheat the laws of physics.

 

[Lightcycle]

Fair.

Braking distance is probably the most contentious part of ABS but it isn't the important part. The real game changer is control.

No argument.

My other beef is that ABS is often discussed in the same breath as other aids such as TC, QS, CC, which inarguably outperform human beings in 2024.

Didn't always used to be the case. Early manumatics were clunky and true manuals always performed better.

But today, who can argue that a quickshifter won't shave precious tenths of a second per lap.
Same with lean-sensitive Traction Control where you can whack the throttle open mid corner and get superior drive compared to a rider without it.
And much as I hate Cruise Control, I'm not going to claim that I can hold a constant speed better over hundreds of miles.

HOWEVER, currently, today, in 2024... most people can brake in a shorter distance than ABS. In a controlled environment. Maybe in the near or distant future, the technology will get better and this will change.

Even though those other tools have a safety component to them, ABS is not in the same class as other performance-oriented electronic aids.

It is purely a safety net not a performance tool.

"Yes yes... but what if a truck turns left in front of you..."

 

[Evoex]

In flying we have a saying, "Superior pilots use their superior judgement to avoid situations that would require the use of their superior skills", exactly why I have very little use for ABS and the rest of the nanny controls on vehicles. All these nanny controls and we still have accidents...damn you cannot cheat the laws of physics.

But one could maybe walk away from an accident that would have otherwise taken them out for good. Increasing the odds is the point.

If we believe what you say about your level of experience and dedication to training one has to remember that the average rider is not you, will never be you and could very well end up in the ER or worse without the nannies.

 

[bitzz]

And we all TALK about practicing threshold braking, but do we REALLY practice threshold?
Threshold, by definition, is >1% below locked wheel... so the ONLY way to practice is to lock the wheel and back off a smidge... and for the first 45 times we try, we bin the bike (it's a lot easier to learn the basics of threshold in a car, where you don't die everytime). You have to learn what the initial "lock up" feels like and the only way to learn is to do it.
So TRUTHFULLY, how many of us have practiced in a parking lot, get it up to speed, grab a HANDFUL of brake, lock the front wheel for a nano second, till it POPs and then gather it back up? enough that you can do it by instinct?
Braking is like cornering, you're a hero till you're not. You have to learn what out of control feels like and the only way to learn is by being out of control... and it's SCARY and you crash a lot. The only way to find the edge is to fall off the edge, repeatedly, till you recognize the edge.
And I understand the "average" rider doesn't want to invest that

 

[PrivatePilot]

I think we're all agreeing with one another

Not so sure about that as there are at least 2 participants who are confident in their ability to do perfect world braking in an impending accident situation where adrenaline has taken over. Which simply isn’t reality.

Until you’ve had one of those situations (on 2 wheels I should have specified), I don’t think anyone can relate to how fast everything flies out the window so far as being able to put *all* your skills together in one perfect scenario leading up to your impending crash.

Sure, skills still matter. Knowing how to lean your bike to its limits. Knowing how to look where you want to go. Knowing how to use both your front and rear brakes together regardless of any linking system. Knowing evasion techniques. And yes, even knowing threshold braking.

But anyone who legitimately thinks that in the last few seconds of sheer terror before a physically unavoidable crash that they can put every single one of those things perfectly together in those split seconds is simply overconfident, to be blunt. You will get some right. Not all. Whatever “crutches” can help a rider stay in control at least during those few seconds is not to be discounted just because “crutches bad, technology sucks, I can do better!”. That’s textbook overconfidence.

Maybe, just maybe, the skills you *do* get right in those seconds, in conjunction those crutches together will pull you out of the maws of death at the last second as @Priller described.

 

[PrivatePilot]

And we all TALK about practicing threshold braking, but do we REALLY practice threshold?

I have slow-motion video of me practising threshold breaking on my old VTX. It’s quite interesting in that for the last couple of inches the wheel does lock and you can actually see the flex in the front fork. I’ll see if I can anonymize it enough to feel confident posting it here, will reply later.

So yes, I have practised it, on a bike without ABS for that matter.

I am still not so overconfident in my abilities that I don’t put faith in ABS perhaps saving my ass someday when a non-perfect world situation presents itself, see last reply.

 

[Ash]

Back when I was still riding dirt bikes, I'd find an open sandy spot (not hard in Ganaraska), hold the throttle partly open and apply front brake until the front wheel was just barely turning and plowing through the sand. It was extended threshold braking which you could ride out as long as the sand lasted. Excellent practice.

I found the same sort of exercise on a full sized street bike to be incredibly unpleasant and stressful. The front tucks much more abruptly. Threshold braking on the track bike isn't too much of a big deal, but I'm always 100% focused there and have many laps to work up to it. ABS on all of my new street bikes, please!

My econobox car is a completely different matter, though. I know that good car ABS exists; they just didn't bother putting it on this one. The ABS on that thing is almost criminally bad, to the point that I pulled the ABS fuse, but the car eventually throws a code and goes into limp-home mode so I had to put it back in. There is zero reason that ABS needs to kick in at 20km/hr and send me sliding through the crosswalk when I approach a stop sign on damp pavement. What emergency is it trying to save me from?! Just lock the damned wheels so I can stop where I wanted to, I'm not going to fall over like on a bike.

 

[bitzz]

My buddy Pedzi got invites to the BMW press launch, at Shannonville, for the NEW and EXCITING Bosch ABS setup circa 1988/9. I got be his +1. So they had 4 big GSs, two with ABS, two with no ABS ...had outriggers.
So the sales pitch is: See how safe the ABS is? We are all encouraged to ride and brake as hard as you can, on both types of bikes. Of course everybody wanted to ride the ABS bikes, being new and exciting and all... so the outrigger bikes were just sittin there... so Pedzi and I jumped on them and we were doing our best to flip them over... ALMOST... we got asked to leave, didn't even get the free lunch

 

[Evoex]

My buddy Pedzi got invites to the BMW press launch, at Shannonville, for the NEW and EXCITING Bosch ABS setup circa 1988/9. I got be his +1. So they had 4 big GSs, two with ABS, two with no ABS ...had outriggers.
So the sales pitch is: See how safe the ABS is? We are all encouraged to ride and brake as hard as you can, on both types of bikes. Of course everybody wanted to ride the ABS bikes, being new and exciting and all... so the outrigger bikes were just sittin there... so Pedzi and I jumped on them and we were doing our best to flip them over... ALMOST... we got asked to leave, didn't even get the free lunch

so YOU'RE the reason i can't have nice things.

 

[Ash]

Has anyone in this thread ever experienced this?

My wife was involved in a classic SMIDSY left-turning car at an intersection collision. She braked hard but still struck the car fender. ABS on her bike meant that she was still upright at the moment of impact, so she went over the bars and rolled over the hood. Her hips were messed up for a while from striking the tank and bars as she went over, but it could have been much worse.

Without ABS, a tucked front wheel would have put her on the ground, and instead of rolling over the hood her body would have struck the car's wheel or fender directly with a much harder deceleration.

We practiced a lot in parking lots, but threshold braking was not something she was comfortable with. ABS was absolutely the right choice for her.

Personally, while young and dumb, I once drove a car off a slick road at a ridiculous speed and came within inches of hitting a culvert head-on that would have killed me. This was before airbags, and the car had nearly the worst safety rating in North America at the time. I know the blank-faced panic you're talking about. The brakes were locked up the whole way into the ditch.

 

[Mad Mike]

IMHO the real skill is in not needing abs

That’s my feeling too.

I don’t think I’ve ever activated abs on a bike, a few times on ice in the car.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Earlier video I mentioned of threshold braking (and just beyond at the end) braking on my old VTX. Watch the forks as the wheel locks up to see exactly how much flex is in the front forks.

This is the way it was taught at the Motorcycle Masters course - run to the threshold during stopping and then squeeze even more for the last few feet to maximize any last little bit you hadn't yet got. As you can see, lockups happen.

https://imgur.com/a/4vf4jZL

Anyhow, my points stand on ABS being of benefit to pretty much any rider out there, even if yeah, it increases stopping distance. You're still in control at least when sh!t hits the fan.

 

[Brian P]

Have you ever experienced an “I’m about to die” scenario?

A real one. Not a “that doofus turned in front of me and I had to get on the brakes hard” scenario. A true, heart stopping level situation where you got stopped afterwards and had to collect yourself (and possibly change some under garments) and are thankful you’re still alive at best. Or had to go to the hospital by ambulance afterwards because you got away with your life, but there was some question about that for a period of time, at worst?

Has anyone in this thread ever experienced this?

Yes, except I wasn't successful in not hitting the Ford Taurus that turned left in front of me with no warning.

Bike was my 1990 FZR400 which I still have (pre-restoration). Happened in Tennessee. Coming off the Cherohala Skyway into Tellico, the speed limit drops to 35 mph, I slowed to 60 km/h (close enough). There was a line of traffic in the opposite direction, and with no signal or other indication, the aforementioned Taurus turned left, out of the line of traffic, into my path. I knew I was going to hit the car. There was maybe 1 second before impact. Going left was not an option due to opposing traffic and going right would mean hitting the door instead of the rear quarter. Only option was to hammer the front brake. All discussion about threshold braking goes out the window. It ain't happening. I hit the car with the front wheel locked, the rear wheel in the air, and in the process of low-siding. But, I got the speed down to probably 20 or 25 km/h, and came away from this with a sore wrist. The bike hit the car with the upper fairing, which probably saved the forks and frame from being bent.

Not sure that ABS would have made a difference in that case, although at a higher speed, it would have meant staying rubber side down, and that's faster for stopping.

42Seb's post was excellent. Track situations are generally repeatable and you have multiple practice laps to get it right. On the street, there is more unpredictability, more uncertainty. I want ABS on a street bike.

There is a big difference between old style, or built to a price, ABS systems and the fancier advanced systems. The simple ones can only select between "on" and "off", leading to juddering and vibration (and upset suspension). The advanced ones modulate the brake pressure, avoiding this.

 

[Mad Mike]

Earlier video I mentioned of threshold braking (and just beyond at the end) braking on my old VTX. Watch the forks as the wheel locks up to see exactly how much flex is in the front forks.

This is the way it was taught at the Motorcycle Masters course - run to the threshold during stopping and then squeeze even more for the last few feet to maximize any last little bit you hadn't yet got. As you can see, lockups happen.

https://imgur.com/a/4vf4jZL

Anyhow, my points stand on ABS being of benefit to pretty much any rider out there, even if yeah, it increases stopping distance. You're still in control at least when sh!t hits the fan.

I had to brake like that to wheelie a cruiser.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I had to brake like that to wheelie a cruiser.

I wheelied my Vulcan Voyager once, it was everything it has in it, but it did a little hop. Wouldn't dare do it with my Transcontinental, the thing is such a bloody tank that it would probably blow out the fork seals on landing lol.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Yes, except I wasn't successful in not hitting the Ford Taurus that turned left in front of me with no warning.
...

I knew I was going to hit the car. There was maybe 1 second before impact.
...

All discussion about threshold braking goes out the window. It ain't happening.

That last bit is the thing that so many in the "I practice braking without ABS so I can execute perfect braking if I ever get into an emergency" commenters miss. Unless you've ever been in that sort of situation, you don't know what it's like.

Anyhow, my story? 1993 (I think it was), Yamaha Seca 900, first ever street bike. Car cut me off and stopped in front of me, basically a brake check, and I didn't see it happening until it was too late. Probably travelling around 80kph. I was young, inexperienced street rider at the time, grabbed way too much front brake and locked the rear, high sided, and as I was coming off, I supermanned through the rear window of the 80's Dodge Omni, all the way through the car, cracking the windshield with my helmet from the inside.

At some point during that trip I tore open the side of my neck. I've saw my own Carotid artery and Jugular vein at the hospital afterwards, it was surreal. It was that close - it was basically just a big flap of skin hanging and the hospital said I was lucky to be alive as a few more mm and I'd have cut one or both and probably bled out before or during the ambulance ride.

Still got a nice scar from that, although the doctors did a great job stapling me back together and it's faded over the decades and hides under my beard a lot of the time. It's like a washboard country road whenever I shave it, though.

One thing is for sure, in that split second, no amount of training would have prevented the fact that I was going to hit that car. There was no physical way to avoid it - the only thing I could have done better is slowing down a little more beforehand, at best, but I was GOING to hit it. And in a moment where you legit think you're about to die, yeah, **** happens so fast that concentrating on making a perfect world stop goes right the heck out the window. You make the stop you can make, and having some crutches there along with you to make it a more controlled stop (vs sliding sideways under the car which is what happens to a lot of people) is probably not going to be a bad thing.

Anywhooooooo. Thankfully no major accidents on 2 wheels ever since. <knocks on wood>

 

[afici0nad0]

I dont even have a phone holder on my bike. Aside from fuel injection, its as analogue but recent as i like it to be