Overbearing electronics

[PrivatePilot]

I have zero use for ABS and it has been around for decades.

There comes a point where technology not only proves itself, but becomes inexpensive, reliable, and actually real world beneficial.

ABS is at that point.

I think continuing to refuse to use technology like ABS simply out of some hatred for technology is not in your own best interests. Some day ABS might very well save your life. Why would you NOT want it anymore, in all seriousness? It's not the 1980's anymore where it barely worked at best, and failed the first time you looked at the speedometer the wrong way.

 

[TK4]

I believe my KLR has just the right amount. (just like my '76 CB750F)

The KLR came with ABS from new - well, not intentionally...

 

[GreyGhost]

Some consumers are easily sucked into "high tech" without thinking how useful or practical it really is.

I prefer real instrument gauges or analog gauges in a cluster. Those glass panels a-la-Next Generation Star Trek I have no use for on my motorcycle, cars or in aircraft. I sat in the captain's seat of a B787-9 that my commercial student now flies. Fancy, and I am sure I can get used to it but it is not for me. Same for PDK or DSG transmissions; I prefer a manual. In fact, I have zero use for ABS and it has been around for decades.

I was with you until abs. On a street bike, it will outbrake a skilled rider the vast majority of the time. On a car on the road, it will win every single time as it can deliver max braking at each wheel. Without abs, driver only gets to control overall level (and pick whether to let wheel with least grip slide to max traction on rest or release to keep them all spinning but miss out on traction from the rest).

I don't ride/drive hard enough on the street to trigger abs. The only time it engages is bad road surface or max effort braking. When implemented well, I think it's a great safety feature to have available for when you need it.

 

[MCT]

There comes a point where technology not only proves itself, but becomes inexpensive, reliable, and actually real world beneficial.

ABS is at that point.

I think continuing to refuse to use technology like ABS simply out of some hatred for technology is not in your own best interests. Some day ABS might very well save your life. Why would you NOT want it anymore, in all seriousness? It's not the 1980's anymore where it barely worked at best, and failed the first time you looked at the speedometer the wrong way.

I'll tell you want save my life and it wasn't ABS. It was called skill and not freezing up. Oh and by the way, I have thousands of hours training pilots and some of them should take up basket weaving.

This may be before your time, but I recall ABS coming out in the late 70s. The commercial on TV showed a driver braking and turning the wheel. Yeah right, because if you locked up the brakes, trust me you are in panic mode and you won't be turning the steering wheel.

But part of my course in a car last summer had me accelerate to 100 kph and in the last nano second, the instructor (he must have had skid marks in his underwear) pointed left or right (cones were used to make lanes). Full lock-up and steering and the course was tight.

I figure if I can lay a faint black line with the front tire of my motorcycle and not lock up (or I'd go down), I am doing OK. The back wheel was 6" off the ground. This was real, not some exercise.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I had my ABS activate on my new ride when we were down in WV a few weeks ago. Came around a corner at speed and found a stop sign suddenly at a blind intersection. No warning signs. Loose gravel across the roadway kicked up from the shoulder to make things even more interesting.

Felt the ABS come on and do its thing. No drama. Got stopped. Continued on.

Without it? It might have been a lowside. Injuries? Perhaps - a 1000# bike falling on you is likely going to hurt at any sort of speed. Scraped up or cracked up bike that I now need to ride 900km home? Also very possible.

 

[PrivatePilot]

It was called skill and not freezing up

I've ridden all my life. I've taken advanced riding courses that included evasive maneuvers and threshhold braking. I have skills. I continue to hone them routinely. I'm probably older than you think I am, but you are definitely older the way you seem to loathe technology "just because".

In the end, "skill" doesn't save your butt when that front wheel locks up. In a panic situation where someone has executed a left turn of death in front of you as you're clipping along at 100, all the skills in the world aren't going to save you when you lock that front wheel on a broken, dirty, or slippery road surface (or heck, even a pristine road surface because you squeezed just a little too hard in the moment of panic before the impending crash) and dump your bike.

Steel on asphalt doesn't bleed off speed until the moment of the collision as well as rubber on asphalt under maximum braking does. Lower speed at the point of impact = increased chance of survivability and less injuries.

You're letting your dislike of technology get in the way of facts and reality in this case.

 

[MCT]

You're letting your dislike of technology get in the way of facts and reality in this case.

I just don't need it in the 50 years as a licenced rider/driver. Still accident and insurance claim free. But whatever works for you though.

By the way, threshhold braking has already proven to stop you faster than ABS. Of course not for the average rider/driver.

 

[PrivatePilot]

It’s evident you aren’t interested in having your mind changed based on facts, so you have a fine day.

 

[Lightcycle]

I was with you until abs. On a street bike, it will outbrake a skilled rider the vast majority of the time.

Not to stir the pot, but I don't believe this to be true.

For any doubters, try it yourself. Go to a parking lot and get up to xxx km/h. Pick a spot to brake with ABS. Measure where the bike stops. Put a marker down.

If your bike is able to, turn ABS off. Repeat the above using threshold braking. Your first attempt might be well past the ABS marker.

But I guarantee, after about 5-10 runs, you *will* beat the ABS marker.

I don't think I'm that skilled, but on any given bike with ABS, I'm confident I can outbrake the computer 10 times out of 10 using threshold braking, in dry *and* wet conditions.

ABS is tuned to be waaaay conservative. A little bit of rubber "scritch" sound on the pavement actually stops you faster than a computer letting off the brakes early to maintain 100% grip.

RyanF9 comes to the same conclusion:

HOWEVER...

In the end, "skill" doesn't save your butt when that front wheel locks up. In a panic situation where someone has executed a left turn of death in front of you as you're clipping along at 100, all the skills in the world aren't going to save you when you lock that front wheel on a broken, dirty, or slippery road surface (or heck, even a pristine road surface because you squeezed just a little too hard in the moment of panic before the impending crash) and dump your bike.

^ This. Parking lot is not a panic situation.

You do not have to have high skills to beat ABS. You just have to practice feeling what a skid feels like, and learn how to back off the brakes before that happens. If you always rely on ABS, you never develop that skill. Which I think is a shame. Plus, then you can brag to all your riding buddies that you can beat ABS.

Anyone can beat ABS.

But you have to practice.

ABS is a nice to have for me, but if there was a bike I really liked and wanted and it didn't have ABS, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. Not a deal-breaker for me.

 

[GreyGhost]

Not to stir the pot, but I don't believe this to be true.

For any doubters, try it yourself. Go to a parking lot and get up to xxx km/h. Pick a spot to brake with ABS. Measure where the bike stops. Put a marker down.

If your bike is able to, turn ABS off. Repeat the above using threshold braking. Your first attempt might be well past the ABS marker.

But I guarantee, after about 5-10 runs, you *will* beat the ABS marker.

I don't think I'm that skilled, but on any given bike with ABS, I'm confident I can outbrake the computer 10 times out of 10 using threshold braking, in dry *and* wet conditions.

ABS is tuned to be waaaay conservative. A little bit of rubber "scritch" sound on the pavement actually stops you faster than a computer letting off the brakes early to maintain 100% grip.

RyanF9 comes to the same conclusion:

HOWEVER...



^ This. Parking lot is not a panic situation.

You do not have to have high skills to beat ABS. You just have to practice feeling what a skid feels like, and learn how to back off the brakes before that happens. If you always rely on ABS, you never develop that skill. Which I think is a shame. Plus, then you can brag to all your riding buddies that you can beat ABS.

Anyone can beat ABS.

But you have to practice.

ABS is a nice to have for me, but if there was a bike I really liked and wanted and it didn't have ABS, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. Not a deal-breaker for me.

For the street, I don't care that I can beat abs after practicing 10 times in a controlled situation with traction constant. In the real world I get one chance, traction is unknown until after you exceed it (and potentially variable) and there is a ton of adrenalin. In that situation there is almost nobody that can beat abs.

 

[Lightcycle]

For the street, I don't care that I can beat abs after practicing 10 times in a controlled situation with traction constant. In the real world I get one chance and traction is unknown until after you exceed it. In that situation there is almost nobody that can beat abs.

You missed the "HOWEVER" part in my post.

The misconception I'm trying to correct is when I hear, "ABS beats all but the most skilled riders". This is not true.

By the end of the second day of the M2 course, most of my students are emergency braking on par with ABS with proper technique. These are new riders who have never touched a motorcycle before the weekend.

As for "traction unknown", ABS is often a huge liability in low traction environments. A buddy of mine broke his arm because ABS let off the brakes as he was coming down a loose downhill trail. On his KTM 690 he has to manually turn ABS off every time he starts the bike. The one time he forgot to do it, he hit a tree at the bottom of the hill and then he was out for half a season. Sometimes inducing a skid in low traction surfaces is the quickest and safest way to stop instead of the computer deciding to cut your brake lines because IT panics instead of you.

Some real-world testing on dirt:

--

Going to clarify this so this doesn't become a 5-page thread:

Q: Can most riders brake in a shorter distance than ABS?
A: Yes. With less than half-an-hour of practice on the parking lot *anyone* can learn to outbrake ABS.

Don't fight me on this. Just go out into the parking lot and try it yourself. It doesn't cost you anything and worst case, you gain a new skill.

There are certainly technologies that are better than humans. Automatic transmissions used to be slower than manuals, however DCT technology has advanced so much that it now shifts faster and yields quicker 0-60 times than manuals.

However, in 2024, ABS is not a technology that can outbrake humans. It is tuned too conservatively and comes on too early to stop in a shorter distance than a person using proper threshold braking technique.

Q: What is ABS good for then?
A: In a panic situation, a person may grab too much brake and induce an unintentional skid, thus lengthening stopping distance. Anti-Lock Braking System will prevent that from happening. It is a safety net technology, not a performance technology.

In 2024, most riders can still outbrake in a shorter distance than ABS. The fact that the computer lets off the brakes when it senses a lock-up means that it will not outperform a rider maintaining constant and progressive pressure on the brakes.

Just try it out for yourself. After even just a little bit of practice, you will never again claim that ABS outbrakes humans.

ABS = Anti-Brainfart System

 

[bitzz]

don't have a bike with ABS, have ridden a few older iterations, not the newer stuff... but I'll tell ya I am above average on the brakes. I used to poo poo ABS, till I started to look at the physics
At the bottom of the issue is tire traction, and you get maximum traction with a 15-30% slip (depending on a vast array of variables, tire structure, rubber compound, temperature, etc etc)... meaning you'll get maximum brake traction at 100kph if the wheel is turning at about 70-85kph. At 100 kph that will means the tire is screaming and smoking at maximum braking.
Any ABS system I have looked at limits slip to 10% at max.
Maximum braking at speed is scary and sphincter contracting even you know what you're doing. None of us are smoking the front tire on panic stop. If I can get them to "POP" I figure I'm being a brake hero... and that's probably 5-10% slip.
So again, I think I'm pretty good on the brakes, passed a LOT of racers going into corners on the brakes, lots and lots, I was known for going deep... and the AVERAGE ABS system will outbrake me (if you're brave enough to mash the brakes and hang on), what I am saying is the average ABS system will outbrake the majority of racers I have met. Gummy tire and turn the ABS up to 25% slip and you'd tear the skin off the rider.

I worked on a '77 or 78 Impala with ABS, it was mostly mechanical and filled half the trunk (the '77 impala did not have a small trunk)
I don't get the "I'm too a good rider, I don't need ABS" argument. If you're REALLY that good, you'll never kick in the ABS... think of ABS as a test of your braking ability. A game I play in the car is to drive in the snow and try NOT to kick in the ABS

 

[Lightcycle]

I don't get the "I'm too a good rider, I don't need ABS" argument. If you're REALLY that good, you'll never kick in the ABS... think of ABS as a test of your braking ability. A game I play in the car is to drive in the snow and try NOT to kick in the ABS

Simply NOT true.

Ask any motorcycle racer whether they use ABS on the track or not. That alone should give you the correct answer.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I will also concur that stopping distances with ABS can and often are longer.

That said, achieving that shorter distance is often a perfect world situation (ie parking lot practice), and in a calm non emergency situation as well.

As soon as you get into an emergency panic situation, for most but the most insanely highly skilled track riders, when you are literally about to plow into a potential deadly accident, panic takes over and you just squeeze the brakes for all your worth. Anybody who has ever almost rear-ended somebody while driving their car can probably think back to those few seconds and remember almost putting their foot through the floor trying to press the brakes – nobody in all honesty can tell me at that moment in time that they were focussing on threshold braking.

In the end, you get into the situation I explained it in an earlier reply where the bike slows down better while still upright on rubber, versus sliding on steel after you’ve dropped it. And every KPH that you manage to bleed off before the collision is potentially life-saving.

Long story short, most riders are not as skilled as they believe themselves to be, especially in a life or death situation they may never have yet experienced (and hopefully never will) where the chance of impending death is very real and panic takes over. ABS can help you live to see another day in those situations. It’s not always about shortening stopping distances, it’s about maintaining control and maximizing braking in a situation where most people would have crashed before the actual accident itself occurs.

 

[Wingboy]

IMHO the real skill is in not needing abs

 

[Priller]

Not to stir the pot, but I don't believe this to be true.

For any doubters, try it yourself. Go to a parking lot and get up to xxx km/h. Pick a spot to brake with ABS. Measure where the bike stops. Put a marker down.

If your bike is able to, turn ABS off. Repeat the above using threshold braking. Your first attempt might be well past the ABS marker.

But I guarantee, after about 5-10 runs, you *will* beat the ABS marker.

I don't think I'm that skilled, but on any given bike with ABS, I'm confident I can outbrake the computer 10 times out of 10 using threshold braking, in dry *and* wet conditions.

ABS is tuned to be waaaay conservative. A little bit of rubber "scritch" sound on the pavement actually stops you faster than a computer letting off the brakes early to maintain 100% grip.

RyanF9 comes to the same conclusion:

HOWEVER...



^ This. Parking lot is not a panic situation.

You do not have to have high skills to beat ABS. You just have to practice feeling what a skid feels like, and learn how to back off the brakes before that happens. If you always rely on ABS, you never develop that skill. Which I think is a shame. Plus, then you can brag to all your riding buddies that you can beat ABS.

Anyone can beat ABS.

But you have to practice.

ABS is a nice to have for me, but if there was a bike I really liked and wanted and it didn't have ABS, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. Not a deal-breaker for me.

As per usual with F9, they've cherry picked the data to generate clicks. The ABS on that Honda CB500 is about as basic as it gets. I'd like to see them compare to a bike with an actual sixaxis IMU and multiple sensors, like an S1000RR, RSV4, any Ducati in their upper range, etc. Something that is the kind of bike that kicked off this thread in the first place. Like TC, not all ABS systems are identical, so blanket statements can't be made. 'Beating' ABS on those bikes isn't quite as simple a thing. I remember an article in one of the US magazines before they went bust where they competed against the BMW S1000RR system, and it was closer than you'd think, even with experienced racers like Kent Kunitsugu involved.

And even with that basic ABS, Cap'n Smug from F9 was able to threshold brake to almost the same distance, so keeping it in case you accidentally grab a fistful or hit a gravel patch, damp road paint, diesel spill, black ice, wet leaves, or the infinite other slippery things on the road seems like an obvious choice, even if you have ice in your veins and the late braking feel of Stoprak. This is exponentially more true with cornering ABS, where there is no such thing as threshold braking in most cases, as finding the threshold will instantly wash the front.

Anyway, not dismissing your point, and I agree that it's much better to develop a feel for threshold braking than simply pull the lever to the bar. But one doesn't preclude the other, even for a skilled rider.

Simply NOT true.

Ask any motorcycle racer whether they use ABS on the track or not. That alone should give you the correct answer.

For club racing, ABS is heavy. Pumps, motors, plumbing. If it weighed nothing, it might be a different story. Might also have saved a few of the many crashes from Ducati riders losing the front this year, actually. The modern pro-grade systems are pretty incredible but have largely been banned, similar to top-tier TC, as it makes the racing a LOT less interesting.

 

[Jaymod]

I just want to add that I think it really depends on the bike. My ex250 has proper fork internals and a nice shock, spring rate and damping set correctly. a nicely tuned brake set up,and good tires. Love that bike so much I put a ex300 motor and fi system in it, it just feels perfect with great feedback. On the other hand one of my ex500’s has stock under sprung suspension, the front brake has to much initial bite( need to try a different pad), and tires that are made to last not grip. When I got turned left in front of on that bike, I didn’t know the bike was going down till I hit the ground.. it was instant and just felt like brake dive. If that bike had abs it would have saved me a broken shoulder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PrivatePilot]

IMHO the real skill is in not needing abs

See my last reply above on that topic.

I’ve spent 29 and counting years in the commercial trucking industry and have seen ABS become a problematic novelty item from the late 90s that rarely worked well (or for long) into a mandated requirement today which works problem free almost all the time.

Does it increase stopping distances in some situations on our equipment? There is absolutely zero question the answer is YES in many situations, especially snow. I have experienced it myself.

That being said, the important thing to keep in mind is that it allows the driver to maintain control through situations that would have otherwise resulted in the tractor trailer just folding up into a stereotypical jackknife and at that point being completely out of control.

When you’re in control you can work to evade a situation by steering around it or whatnot. Heck, drive it into the ditch - this is the outcome in a lot of situations and usually ends up with the driver being just fine and nobody else being hurt.

When you are jackknifed and sliding down the highway with your trailer broadside to 3 or 4 lanes of stopped cars because it’s wheels have locked up and any chance of regaining control is lost, now sliding at 80kph, it’s going to be a far different outcome however.

In control vs out of control is the argument that is often lost when it comes to these sorts of debates, and as good as riders as many think they are, when they are truly presented with a life or death situation and panic and adrenaline take over, a lot of people find out that they are not as good a rider as they thought they were all of a sudden.

I would rather remain in control of the bike scrubbing off speed or having a chance of avoidance in this moment of panic then locking up the front wheel and sliding in an uncontrolled fashion to the scene of the accident.

I used to feel differently about ABS, I’m sure a few members here could probably dig up my posts from when I first joined and expressed my opinions on it back then…however since then, I’ve changed my opinions based on reality, not perfect world situations.

Watching my wife crash a few years ago in an accident that might have been avoided had her bike had ABS was also a big eye-opener as to the realities of “I’m a skilled rider with lots of experience and don’t need those electronic crutches” versus the realities of what might have happened had those electronic crutches saved her butt from having gone down to begin with.

 

[Baggsy]

Go to a course where they do progressive or emergency braking. If the people there aren’t skilled, they are at least working to become so. Check your braking distance and speed compared to them. I’m good on my ABS equipped bike, under all weather conditions. That’s not to say that I don’t try to not engage the ABS.

This give me 5-10 practice runs is not a good comparison. Turn your ABS off, do your best stop. If you haven’t crashed, turn the ABS on, and try to beat it.

 

[Lightcycle]

Again: the point I'm trying to correct is "Can ABS stop in a shorter distance than people?"

Not: "In a panic situation..."

We've all got bikes, right?

All this keyboard back and forth can be completely done away if you just go to a parking lot and try it out.

You'll be surprised.