I'm not arguing about the parking lot drill. You and I have firmly different opinions as to whether ABS or manual wins when a car turns left in front of you on the road. That's ok.
|
|
|
Overbearing electronics
- Thread starter TK4
- Start date
I agree, in a panic situation, you may not be able to replicate a parking lot drill.
But to say that only skilled riders can outbrake ABS is not true. It is so often repeated that people believe that the technology is a peformance techology, not a safety-net technology. Just look at that guy who said you can brake deeper on the track with ABS. OMG, the pulsing of the anti-lock when you've trail-braked right to the limit of traction at the apex... front tuck city.
The more accurate thing to say is, "Most riders can learn to stop in a shorter distance distance than ABS. However, in a panic situation, you may not have the wherewithal to do so".
I think I've said this in every single post on this thread.
Last edited:
That's the only point I was trying to make.
Not reacting in a panic when a truck turns left in front of you.
ABS results in longer stopping distances... in a controlled environment.
Just wanted to offer my .02 and clarify a few things. For some context, I've been racing for a few years now and taken bikes on track both with and without ABS. I race at a decently high level (PRO CSBK and PRO SOAR)
1. ABS is not just ABS, most bikes now have BCS (Brake Control System). ABS is also part of this system. This system also uses the bikes IMU to reduce brake pressure when it detects the rear tire coming off the ground. Some bikes also implement a linked braking system
2. ABS only applies in imperfect road conditions. Imperfect is very broad but basically anything outside of race slicks on race surface is considered "imperfect"
3. In racing, ABS is ripped out/not used because it is a perfect environment. You will fly over the bars LONG before you will lock up a front wheel. When I got my R1, I still had the factory BCS system and it frequently cut in. Under hard braking, the rear would lift and I would feel pulsing in the lever which I did not like. In racing, consistent feel is most important and BCS doesn't provide that; so it is removed.
For street use, BCS and accompanying ABS makes a LOT of sense and I see absolutely no reason someone would want to remove it. On the street you encounter imperfect (or often poor) conditions and unforeseen situations. The BCS would do an excellent job with rider safety.
As for TCS/LIF/QS/AB etc. eh, why not. Do you need a blipper for the street? For sure not, but it sure is cool to have!
1. ABS is not just ABS, most bikes now have BCS (Brake Control System). ABS is also part of this system. This system also uses the bikes IMU to reduce brake pressure when it detects the rear tire coming off the ground. Some bikes also implement a linked braking system
2. ABS only applies in imperfect road conditions. Imperfect is very broad but basically anything outside of race slicks on race surface is considered "imperfect"
3. In racing, ABS is ripped out/not used because it is a perfect environment. You will fly over the bars LONG before you will lock up a front wheel. When I got my R1, I still had the factory BCS system and it frequently cut in. Under hard braking, the rear would lift and I would feel pulsing in the lever which I did not like. In racing, consistent feel is most important and BCS doesn't provide that; so it is removed.
For street use, BCS and accompanying ABS makes a LOT of sense and I see absolutely no reason someone would want to remove it. On the street you encounter imperfect (or often poor) conditions and unforeseen situations. The BCS would do an excellent job with rider safety.
As for TCS/LIF/QS/AB etc. eh, why not. Do you need a blipper for the street? For sure not, but it sure is cool to have!
Yes... and no.
Here is the transcript of RyanF9's video which mirrors the point I was trying to make at 5:33:
Most people on here are failing to make the distinction between performance and safety. All the videos I've linked are focused on the performance aspect of the technology. All of them acknowledge these are controlled environments.
Here is an interesting interview from Aprilia's race manager talking about allowing ABS in MotoGP:
Anti-Lock Brakes are not a performance tool. They are a safety tool.
The reason you practice is to develop "muscle memory", you practice till it's second nature, then you don't think about it, instinct kicks in and you PANIC stop. With enough practice, yes you can replicate your parking lot skills... EVERY time
Key word here is CAN... most riders don't... like 98% don't. MOST riders don't service their brakes, setup the suspension on their new bike... all that good stuff that makes brakes work better... cuz they don't know any better
And are your tires up to temp and are you on paint and . . . . Your muscle memory for warm tires on dry pavement in a straight line during repetative practice is probably a bit strong for many real world anchor out situations. Practice is a great idea and there are no downsides. I am still maintaining that in an unexpected panic stop, good abs will beat manual almost every time as it is able to process all that crap faster than we can.
No amount of parking lot practice in the world will equate to or prepare someone for a “I’m about to die” moment, to put it succinctly.
This all comes back to perfect world situations.
My emergency braking in a “That car turned in front of me, what a dummy” scenario is calm and practiced. I’m not so overconfident in my abilities and skills to think that they’d be the same in an “I’m about to die” moment, with a few wet leaves or some sand on the road mixed in as well.
Overconfidence kills riders.
Priller
Well-known member
I think the hairs are being split finer and finer here as we descend into position lockdown, but I'd like to make a couple of clarifications:
- On the track, as @42Seb points out in his excellent post above, traction isn't a issue when braking in a straight line. Where it is an issue is when trail braking into a corner, on the edge of the tire. What Bonora is advocating for above is saving those crashes, as the time between lock-up and washout is too short for most humans to react (unless your name is Marc Marquez, and even then, only sometimes). Maybe ABS kicking in there results in running wide rather than losing the front as the geometry changes, but it would keep a rider upright and in the fight. The reality is the tech is there, but it hasn't been developed because it's not good for the spectacle, just as TC had to be dialled back for fear of everyone treating the throttle like a light switch and the software engineers dictating lap times even more than they already do. To the splitting hairs part, if running a cornering ABS costs you a quarter meter braking distance on the back straight, but significantly reduces your odds of washing out the front (especially as tires wear and can perform differently without warning), I'd be very curious which would result in a higher championship standing at the end of the year.
- Similarly, in the article I wish I could find (that I swear was from the now defunct Sport Rider magazine, but it could have been something like Performance Bikes in the UK), the difference between the ABS on the S1000RR and a skilled racer working up to his shortest stops was down to a couple meters from something like 100 mph. Not arguing that ABS can stop shorter, especially under ideal conditions. I don't think that many here are saying that. But when the difference is that small, and my absolute prepared best in ideal conditions and no surprises is barely better than the every-single-time of a higher-end ABS system, then I'm going to err on pulling the lever harder than softer in a panic situation, and be very glad the ABS (and adjacent systems) is available to me. (Also, my beef with the F9 video is that they have picked a bike that provides worst-case ABS rather than best-case to magnify the disadvantage.)
None of this will stop me doing the usual practising panic stops, especially early in the season, and keeping a feel for the limit, mind...
That works both ways... BUT both ABS and threshold braking relies on tire slip... which is gonna be the same if you got ABS or not (all things being equal). You brake till you hit the limit of slip you or your ABS will allow, then back off a touch, or the ABS kicks in... both a supposed to working at optimum FOR THE CONDITIONS
Thing IS, I've been riding for 55 years and put a newby on a bike with ABS and they can brake almost as
as me... almost... in all conditions, without the 55 years of experience
Have you ever experienced an “I’m about to die” scenario?
A real one. Not a “that doofus turned in front of me and I had to get on the brakes hard” scenario. A true, heart stopping level situation where you got stopped afterwards and had to collect yourself (and possibly change some under garments) and are thankful you’re still alive at best. Or had to go to the hospital by ambulance afterwards because you got away with your life, but there was some question about that for a period of time, at worst?
Has anyone in this thread ever experienced this?
Are you trying to say don't bother learning how to brake correctly and put all your faith in ABS and TCS?
Personally I KNOW we don't live in 'optimum conditions", so I train for as many different conditions as I can. After my kid went to driving school and got her license, and she FREAKED when I threw the truck sideways through a corner YEE HAW... and I find out sliding a car around was not even discussed in driving school. She had never heard to turn into a spin... which is kinda handy thing to know in Canadian winters. So we spent a day sliding a van around in a antifreeze soaked parking lot (antifreeze is slippier that ice)... just in case
Me and the insurance industry, and most of the car industry think that ABS, TCS and the like are last chance life savers, they're there to save your life, NOT help you drive. Learning to rely on ABS and TCS and the like is a mistake
Last edited:
Not at all. As I said, I’ve taken advanced rider training, and if you saw my video I posted recently of my practicing various skills including low speed work, you’d see that I'm not afraid to both continue to learn as well as practice my various skills. I purport to be a good rider. I never purport to pretend I know it all.
I’m also saying I’m not overconfident in a perfect world training relating 100% to an “I’m about to die” situation level emergency. The people who think one translates directly to the other are being either overconfident or naive, in my opinion.
See and respond to my latest reply on that last bit please.
Priller
Well-known member
Yes, but it's a derail from the ABS discussion because I didn't touch the brakes.
I'll tell a short(ish) version of the story anyway. Spent a summer working in Ottawa, and used to head up to a lookout in Gatineau Park after work on my Hawk GT, enjoy a couple corners and have a smoke to get away from the guys I was both living and working with for an hour or so. Near the top, there are a couple of blind corners, and I came around a right hander going way faster than I should have been going only to come head on with a Dodge minivan fully in my lane coming the other way. There was almost zero shoulder on that road, but I panic tightened my line and squeezed between him and the dirt, dragging my hero blobs all the way through. Braking would have done nothing, and it was obvious enough even in a full sh*t-your-pants moment that I didn't touch the lever or the pedal, just leaned farther than I had before and for a long time after, at least until I started going to the track. I'd been reading A Twist of the Wrist II at the time, and I wonder if it had any bearing on my reaction.
Got to the top, and instead of one smoke, I shakily consumed about half a pack as I got my breath back and worked up the nerve to head back. Saw the scrape from my hero blobs on the return trip as a reminder. I'd love to say that I was cool and collected, but I did so many wrong things at the time. Gripped the bars too tight, got rigid, fought the bike. Mostly got by through luck. The one thing that saved me was looking where I wanted to go, past the minivan on the right and through the corner. Still by far the closest I've ever knowingly come to dying on a bike, and I've crashed once on the road (a couple times at the track don't count)...
Thx. Curious if others have or will share.
Your explanation and timeline of what happened is telling and relatable to anyone who has actually also experienced this. I’ll detail more later once perhaps a few others have shared as well.
I’m torn between “I hope nobody else has ever experienced this” and “I sure hope more people share genuinely so it can be used as a learning tool” for the purpose of this discussion, however.
It ends the riding days of many who’ve ever experienced it. Self preservation wins.
I have the scars to prove my own. Perhaps I’ll overshare that as well later.
Your explanation and timeline of what happened is telling and relatable to anyone who has actually also experienced this. I’ll detail more later once perhaps a few others have shared as well.
I’m torn between “I hope nobody else has ever experienced this” and “I sure hope more people share genuinely so it can be used as a learning tool” for the purpose of this discussion, however.
It ends the riding days of many who’ve ever experienced it. Self preservation wins.
I have the scars to prove my own. Perhaps I’ll overshare that as well later.
ABS is one of those things you hope you never need but if/when an oh **** moment occurs, you'd be glad you had it.
For 99.8% of riders they won't even know they had it in day to day riding. So unless you`re consistently training your muscle memory on 'what if scenarios' I don't get why you would actively look for a non abs version to buy and i most certainly don't get the hate.
my .02 copper
Traction control on the other hand, probably saved my bacon at least 3 times now. And twice were completely unintentional situations (i.e. not intending to be dumb).
For 99.8% of riders they won't even know they had it in day to day riding. So unless you`re consistently training your muscle memory on 'what if scenarios' I don't get why you would actively look for a non abs version to buy and i most certainly don't get the hate.
my .02 copper
Traction control on the other hand, probably saved my bacon at least 3 times now. And twice were completely unintentional situations (i.e. not intending to be dumb).
This is a good thread.
I think we're all agreeing with one another, but as Priller said, we're splitting hairs on nuances like the sophistication of track ABS, etc. Which is far from the original point.
Everyone being civil as well, which *never* happens in a politics thread.
10/10. Would discuss again!
probably the biggest reason for civility?
probably the biggest reason for civility?
No my point is that we're agreeing with one another without realizing it.
We're each approaching the topic from a different angle, but want the other person to acknowledge the angle we're coming from.
I think I've tried to do that, but because of the emotionality of the safety issue, it gets glossed over in the reply.
"In a controlled environment most riders can outbrake ABS. But yes, in a panic situation ABS is useful.."
"But what if a truck turns left in front of you?"
"Yes, I agree in a panic situation it is useful"
"When your life is on the line, you can't react in time!"
*Le sigh...*
Last edited:
|
|
|
|
|