LOL...no...it isn't. Especially not in automotive.
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Occupy Bay street
- Thread starter thebigwoof
- Start date
LOL...no...it isn't. Especially not in automotive.
huh? when did you write anything about jobs? and, as i wrote before, how does the higher quality in mexico than ohio say anything about higher quality than oshawa? if i'm making a point about oshawa versus mexico, why in the name of the baby jebus does someone bring up ohio and think it's relevant?
if you followed along with my post, the link was provided to demonstrate the made in mexico connection for the cavalier/sunfire.
but. . .since you asked, yes there is a jobs/profitability connection with canada/mexico:
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1908205,00.html
hmm, not sure how to respond to this one. quality is, imho, very relative. . .
compare the silverados that roll out of mexico with the ones that used to come off the line in oshawa, and see what i mean.
furthermore, if you don't think quality is relative, try telling that to the rabid enthusiasts of japanese marques, when they start foaming at the mouth for 'jdm' versions of just about any product made. they seem to believe that quality is very relative.
what passes for saleable quality between different brands, and within different brands (across their factories) is very relative. i doubt any car company can speak of quality in absolutes unless they are a boutique brand.
The Wiki article on the Cavalier does indicate that that model was also built in Mexico. It's entirely possible that certain versions of that car were built in Mexico and sold here and it's equally entirely possible that certain other versions were built in Lordstown and sold in Mexico. (E.g. one plant is tooled up for a certain body style but not the other and vice versa, or one plant was running at capacity so some production was allocated to the other plant to fulfill demand, etc. - this sort of thing happens all the time.) In any case, I know with certainty that for the CURRENT model that GM produces in that size class - the Chevrolet Cruze - all of them sold in the US and Canadian markets are coming from Lordstown. Period. No exceptions. The Cruze (and several other Delta-platform variations) is also assembled elsewhere in the world, but the Lordstown plant is dedicated to the one that meets North American safety standards and the powertrains that are sold in this market.
As far as quality of production of a given vehicle from different plants ... In years past, it might have made a difference, and some people might think it still does, but it is largely a myth. Nowadays, with automated bodyshell welding and painting and with the same parts going into the car no matter where the point of final assembly it is, not so much. For several years, VW Jetta sedan came from Mexico, VW Golf came from Brazil, VW Jetta wagon came from Germany. There wasn't an appreciable difference in quality control between any of them. They all had crap power window regulators (it took VW 3 years to realize that the clip holding the power window linkage to the window needed to be a piece of steel, not a piece of plastic) because it was the same part that went into all of them. Diesel engines for all of these came from the engine assembly plant in Poland, regardless of what final assembly plant the car was coming from.
Quality measured in "defects per million" is most certainly an absolute. JD Power's Initial Quality Survey is also most certainly an absolute. Measurements like this are blind to where the vehicle was built.
As far as quality of production of a given vehicle from different plants ... In years past, it might have made a difference, and some people might think it still does, but it is largely a myth. Nowadays, with automated bodyshell welding and painting and with the same parts going into the car no matter where the point of final assembly it is, not so much. For several years, VW Jetta sedan came from Mexico, VW Golf came from Brazil, VW Jetta wagon came from Germany. There wasn't an appreciable difference in quality control between any of them. They all had crap power window regulators (it took VW 3 years to realize that the clip holding the power window linkage to the window needed to be a piece of steel, not a piece of plastic) because it was the same part that went into all of them. Diesel engines for all of these came from the engine assembly plant in Poland, regardless of what final assembly plant the car was coming from.
Quality measured in "defects per million" is most certainly an absolute. JD Power's Initial Quality Survey is also most certainly an absolute. Measurements like this are blind to where the vehicle was built.
^^Well said brian. Quality, as defined by the manufacturers themselves, is definitely an absolute, measurable metric. If you can't keep tabs on it how the hell can you expect to control it; especially when you're trying to compete against others in the same industry.
In terms of moving plants overseas...why not? If quality is consistent (or consistently superior) and the overhead is significantly less due to lower (relative) wages...how can you not justify moving production? Its economics 101. As for the effects on the local economy...thats where the moral dilemma kicks in. If you're being out performed by teams across the world, do you band together and kick up your effectiveness to remain competitive or do you go on strike and demand higher wages?
In terms of moving plants overseas...why not? If quality is consistent (or consistently superior) and the overhead is significantly less due to lower (relative) wages...how can you not justify moving production? Its economics 101. As for the effects on the local economy...thats where the moral dilemma kicks in. If you're being out performed by teams across the world, do you band together and kick up your effectiveness to remain competitive or do you go on strike and demand higher wages?
my original point was not to debate where the cavalier was made (but thanks for finally admitting i was correct). it was to make the connection between corporate profit seeking and the decline of middle-class manufacturing jobs in canada. the crapalier was only intended as an illustration of this phenomenon.
as for modern production techniques, i do agree that parts have a lot to do with the quality of vehicles produced by various manufacturers, with the vw example being an excellent one.
i can see that the role of roboticization of the assembly process does ascribe a certain uniformity regardless of location.
however, if this were 100% accurate, why does j.d. power go to such lengths to compare initial quality between plants and publicize their findings? contrary to what you wrote, j.d. power is not blind to where vehicles are built. yes, their standards are absolute, and in this regard, oshawa was consistently superior to most other gm plants. but while those standards may be absolute, the relative quality that the plants produced was not.
if the differences are a myth, then why does j.d. power even bother comparing plants?
http://www.exchangemagazine.com/morningpost/2009/week26/Tuesday/062308.htm
they even have a separate category for assembly plant awards:
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010099
They measure it separately for each plant to give an incentive for correcting any problems that may be associated with any given plant.
There are certain things that are not dependent on assembly plant (e.g. a common assembly is being installed regardless of the assembly plant) but certain other things that ARE dependent on assembly plant (e.g. a certain component is obtained from a different supplier - witness Toyota's accelerator pedal situation). Paint is plant-dependent, too. But to make a blanket assumption that a Mexico plant will be inferior to a German plant is a fallacy. They can have problems with the paint line ANYwhere. They can have problems with parts from a supplier ANYwhere. It doesn't matter if the plant is in Germany or Canada or Mexico or Thailand.
There is no discernible difference in quality between a VW built in Mexico or Germany. (They all have the same flaws ... actually, my Mexico-built Jetta sedan has been very good, and the occasional thing that has gone wrong, had nothing to do with where it was built.)
By the way ... show me a Cavalier with Canadian license plates that has a VIN beginning with "3".
There are certain things that are not dependent on assembly plant (e.g. a common assembly is being installed regardless of the assembly plant) but certain other things that ARE dependent on assembly plant (e.g. a certain component is obtained from a different supplier - witness Toyota's accelerator pedal situation). Paint is plant-dependent, too. But to make a blanket assumption that a Mexico plant will be inferior to a German plant is a fallacy. They can have problems with the paint line ANYwhere. They can have problems with parts from a supplier ANYwhere. It doesn't matter if the plant is in Germany or Canada or Mexico or Thailand.
There is no discernible difference in quality between a VW built in Mexico or Germany. (They all have the same flaws ... actually, my Mexico-built Jetta sedan has been very good, and the occasional thing that has gone wrong, had nothing to do with where it was built.)
By the way ... show me a Cavalier with Canadian license plates that has a VIN beginning with "3".
Two problems with this post.
1) The Cavalier/Sunfire never was a "made in Canada" option.
2) The Made in Mexico vehicles were actually better.
So if you wish to discuss specifically Canadian jobs moving south or overseas then your "case in point" is invalid. If you wish to discuss Canadian OR American jobs moving south or overseas and how that impacts costs and quality, your "case in point" is still invalid since this "crappy made in mexico product" is actually better than the Made in USA option.
You brought it up when you brought up Sunfires and Cavaliers. So why in the name of the baby jesus did you bring it up? Your link demonstrates the "Made in Mexico versus Made in USA Connection for the Cavalier/Sunfire".
This new link doesn't discuss quality at all. So without that all it tells us is that since wages are so much lower in Mexico it leads to greater profitability. We all knew that already.
Make up your mind on what you're trying to argue.
i'm not debating vw. frankly, i personally wouldn't buy a vw as my neighbour is a mechanic who works on nothing but vag products all day and he point blank warned me not to buy a vag product. is he guilty of generalizing? of course he is. am i going to listen to him? probably.
why are you making straw man arguments? where have i suggested that all german plants are superior to any mexican plant? i haven't even been comparing all canadian plants. i have repeatedly cited oshawa as my comparison, and do so because i know that despite their high quality rankings, thousands of jobs have been lost there.
this is where corporations and their unending desire for greater profitability have led directly to the suffering of workers in the gta.
btw, i still don't see how what you wrote changes the idea that quality is relative.
as for the cavalier with a 3 vin, i rarely see any cavaliers/sunfires still running, period. for a vehicle that used to be one of the best selling gm products, i can go days without seeing one on the road. totally anecdotal evidence, but take it for what it is, as a measure of their 'quality'.
i have from the beginning discussed the loss of jobs from canada (oshawa specifically) and identified corporate greed as the reason. my latest link expressly addresses that:
"GM Canada may ultimately pay the highest price for the shift in production. The reason is that, going forward, slashing output in Oshawa — its main production facility, located east of Toronto — comes at a much lower political price than doing the same in the U.S., where the U.S. Treasury and United Auto Workers control nearly 80% of the new GM"
people need to open up their eyes. in ontario, when we lose auto sector jobs, everyone pays, everyone suffers. those silverados that everyone drives in the 905 used to be built right here in oshawa, and now most of them are built in mexico. that shift in production had nothing to do with superior quality in mexico. i may not agree with everything that the occupy bay street folks have to say, but they do have a point.
is it corporate greed or is it that the CAW and UAW have priced themselves beyond profitability? or a combination of both?
i don't think $2.80/day for the Mexican workers is a fair wage, but i also don't think $28/hr for unskilled labour is a fair wage either.
i don't think $2.80/day for the Mexican workers is a fair wage, but i also don't think $28/hr for unskilled labour is a fair wage either.
for as long as we discount the value of having a robust manufacturing sector, then ontario will continue its decline into a have-not province. when we sell ourselves short like this, then it makes it easier for harper to throw money at the resource sector and forget that the population core and economic engine of canada is in the golden horseshoe.
the surest way of guaranteeing a service sector economy is to begrudge the working class for their successes. a rising tide lifts all boats. let the success of the secondary sector raise the tertiary sector.
. . .also, you may consider it unskilled, but it's not a job i would want to do.
if $28/hr is not viable, let's see an honest negotiation, aimed at a win-win. . .not a wholesale shutdown of plants.
what do u consider a solid degree?
I don't CONSIDER it unskilled, it IS unskilled.
Talking about corporate greed and blaming the big bad corporations and the government while ignoring the role played by unions and their artificially high wages is silly. The working class should be rewarded for their success if they've earned it. So long as there is the Union versus Management mentality no one will ever see honest negotiation aimed at a win-win. All too often one just wants to screw the other as much as they can.
mma01
Well-known member
The more relevant point is that there are many people capable and willing to do the same job for less money, even within Canada.
There is no honest negotiating with the CAW/UAW. They priced themselves out of competition with their nonsense salaries, nonsense benefits, and nonsense health insurance. How in the world does a person working on an assembly line, driving bolts through a bumper support, earn upwards of $30/hr with full benefits and health insurance? That's ridiculous. That job is absolutely no more demanding than pouring coffee into a cup, yet Tim Horton's pays its employees an avg $10-12/hr.
Of course we're losing manufacturing jobs.. we're greedy. If a shrinking manufacturing sector results in the destruction of these retarded unions then I'm glad to swallow the pill. It could mean an eventual shift back to reasonably priced labour and a revival in competitive manufacturing sector in Canada.
unions are not perfect, far from it, but without them, a lot of the benefits that all workers enjoy today would not exist. a lot of the labour laws, wage levels, etc. have been hard fought for over many decades. non-union shops would be far worse off if not for the existence of union contracts to establish compensation standards.
what a lot of people fail to realize is that contracts are collectively bargained. very rarely do unions hold management over a barrel with a gun to their head. hence the word "collective". thus, the management is equally to blame for any perceived 'artificially' high wages.
furthermore, harper seems to have forgotten that conservative governing means reducing the involvement of government in the workplace--not stepping in and legislating workers back even though they have the legal right to strike. where does 'laissez faire' start and end?
lastly, no sane negotiating team from a union wants to purposely kill the goose--their members give them a mandate to get the best contract that protects the most jobs. bankrupting the company does not accomplish that goal. the last time that actually happened (that i know of) was back in the '80s, with chrysler. hundreds if not thousands of contracts have been successfully negotiated since then. . .
then i wish you all the best in your pursuit of one of those jobs. . .there are fewer and fewer of them every year.
which goes directly to my original point--welcome to the service sector economy. if we consistently cheapen our expectations for labour, we perpetuate the move to offshore products and non-made in canada products. what a lovely country we'll have if we all subsist on minimum wage incomes. . .
frankly, i worked in factories during my younger years and i would never want to spend a lifetime doing it. i am much happier in my white collar job, thank you. the sheer numbing, psychologically-empty task of working on a line is not for everybody, imho. . .i don't know why some people think that everybody could do that job. i could do it for a summer, but not for 25 years straight.
there is a quality difference depending on where a product is made. I noticed a distinct difference in quality between the same product from Japanese and north American plants...this was a few years back when I was tracking that info at an oem so I'm sure it has improved with experience. At Bombardier we also brought back some cseries fuseladge production from china for quality issues.
CAW is actually much more expensive than UAW because the USA and CBS dollar are at par......($33 vs $28 an hour). They could easily justify moving production from Canada to USA for cost savings.
Fords theory was for the average man to be able to purchase the vehicles they make.....seems to have made sense.....less people can do this, hence they sell more in china now.
Cavaliers were made in mexico for a few years.
CAW is actually much more expensive than UAW because the USA and CBS dollar are at par......($33 vs $28 an hour). They could easily justify moving production from Canada to USA for cost savings.
Fords theory was for the average man to be able to purchase the vehicles they make.....seems to have made sense.....less people can do this, hence they sell more in china now.
Cavaliers were made in mexico for a few years.
Hear hear!
A major in a science is a start. Lately I've seen quite a few Grad students with masters degrees underemployed or left seeking for a long while. Many of them stay on in university simply because there aren't the jobs.
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