I would agree welfare fraud is probably low, but welfare abuse is not.
I mentioned before I was a banker for years. I reviewed dozens of client accounts every day, I never went a day without seeing several accounts that appeared to be engaged in welfare fraud. I can’t quantify it, but it’s probably more than you think. Public housing fraud, ChildTax fraud, ODSP fraud were easy to recognize, I would see these every day.
Welfare abuse is a much larger issue in my opinion. Like CERB, a generous welfare program that relies on the recipients honor pulls able bodied people from the workforce and makes fraud fairly easy.
“I just don’t feel like working”welfare provides little incentive to become a productive citizen.
Walking the dog one fine evening not too long ago we happened upon some fine soul jumping up and down upon some groceries having some hissy fit. seems the outreach folks had given him some groceries but sadly the drug unit had just raided his connect before he could trade the food for what he really needed.
The mental health and addiction services could use a rethink IMHO.
It does part of me think we need the poor house concept again. Lock them up out of harms way keep everyone fed until things are better mentally. Maybe capital punishment for drug dealers. What we are doing seems to just be making things worse.
I would agree welfare fraud is probably low, but welfare abuse is not.
I mentioned before I was a banker for years. I reviewed dozens of client accounts every day, I never went a day without seeing several accounts that appeared to be engaged in welfare fraud. I can’t quantify it, but it’s probably more than you think. Public housing fraud, ChildTax fraud, ODSP fraud were easy to recognize, I would see these every day.
Welfare abuse is a much larger issue in my opinion. Like CERB, a generous welfare program that relies on the recipients honor pulls able bodied people from the workforce and makes fraud fairly easy.
“I just don’t feel like working”welfare provides little incentive to become a productive citizen.
Welfare abuse/fraud are the same thing in my book. They do both cost the taxpayer money but as I said, at a degree many many levels below the amounts shuttled out of the country and ”hidden” by the very wealthy.
Welfare abuse/fraud are the same thing in my book. They do both cost the taxpayer money but as I said, at a degree many many levels below the amounts shuttled out of the country and ”hidden” by the very wealthy.
If the wealthy folks you speak of are not following rules, I’m all for tracking them down and prosecuting.
Not sure about your one sided accounting. Considering those 1%ers pay over 20% of all income tax in Canada, I think they might be pulling more of the sled than you and me.
Never mind the taxes that their businesses pay before they get their personal taste and tax bill.
In 2018, the auditor general chastised the govt for having 40000 fraud case backlog in ODSP alone… that’s 1in 5 recipients in line to be investigated for committing fraud.
If the wealthy folks you speak of are not following rules, I’m all for tracking them down and prosecuting.
Not sure about your one sided accounting. Considering those 1%ers pay over 20% of all income tax in Canada, I think they might be pulling more of the sled than you and me.
Never mind the taxes that their businesses pay before they get their personal taste and tax bill.
In 2018, the auditor general chastised the govt for having 40000 fraud case backlog in ODSP alone… that’s 1in 5 recipients in line to be investigated for committing fraud.
Tax avoidance in Canada = $5 billion in lost revenue
Welfare fraud = hard to get accurate numbers but it seems older figures for convictions show less than $100 million.
Where did you get these numbers?
Are you basing your welfare fraud number on convictions? is the $5b number also based on convictions?
Is the 'tax avoidance' breaking the law.. or using it to their advantage?
Ontario spends about 8.5 billion a year on ODSP and OW.
I don't know how much of that is being taken fraudulently.. but.. I personally know 3 people on ODSP.. and all 3 are committing fraud.
That is no different than saying we shouldn't bother pursuing people going into grocery stores and walking out with carts full of food and concentrate on the gangs doing it to jewelry stores as it is petty crime in comparison. Other than an arbitrary money threshold (theft over $x) your normalizing of crime (a bizarre concept of morality is more like it) doesn't make it any less of a crime.
If someone working the system steals your KTM and parts it out on Kijiji don't come in here crying about it. He may have needed the money for a life necessity like tickets to Tanzania for him and his girlfriend. It's a small fry victimless crime. Suck it up and call your insurance company.
That is no different than saying we shouldn't bother perusing people going into grocery stores and walking out with carts full of food and concentrate on the gangs doing it to jewelry stores as it is petty crime in comparison. Other than an arbitrary money threshold (theft over $x) your normalizing of crime (a bizarre concept of morality is more like it) doesn't make it any less of a crime.
If someone working the system steals your KTM and parts it out on Kijiji don't come in here crying about it. He may have needed the money for a life necessity like tickets to Tanzania for him and his girlfriend. It's a small fry victimless crime. Suck it up and call your insurance company.
Where did you get these numbers?
Are you basing your welfare fraud number on convictions? is the $5b number also based on convictions?
Is the 'tax avoidance' breaking the law.. or using it to their advantage?
Ontario spends about 8.5 billion a year on ODSP and OW.
I don't know how much of that is being taken fraudulently.. but.. I personally know 3 people on ODSP.. and all 3 are committing fraud.
$5 billion is the conservative estimate of taxes lost to questionable practices for the purposes of avoiding paying tax. That figure is widely used in multiple sources but is also a few years old.
It’s true, the figures for welfare fraud are difficult to find. $100 million is a figure used in one report and that was based on convictions. Even if it’s 10 times that amount that’s still 20% of what could be recovered by ensuring the filthy rich and corporations pay their fair share. Mike keeps saying the richest x% pay x% of all taxes in Canada. That’s great, but unfortunately the amounts they should pay are determined by the relevant authorities and not the individuals themselves saying ” I think I’ve paid what I want to pay now”.
I’m not saying don’t pursue both, I’m saying one of these things is more than the other by a wide margin but the manufactured rage is usually directed at the welfare fraud rather than the white collar crime. Often as a means to detract from the bigger issue.
$5 billion is the conservative estimate of taxes lost to questionable practices for the purposes of avoiding paying tax. That figure is widely used in multiple sources but is also a few years old.
It’s true, the figures for welfare fraud are difficult to find. $100 million is a figure used in one report and that was based on convictions. Even if it’s 10 times that amount that’s still 20% of what could be recovered by ensuring the filthy rich and corporations pay their fair share.
Except it's not 10 times the convicted amount. I think every person on the forum knows of one or more people cheating ODSP or welfare. Honestly, I expect the number to be well over 50% of recipients are cheating (especially ODSP, get approved once and get cheques forever with very little followup).
I think that we have a systematic generational welfare issue.
Where many people that have been on it all their lives, complain about being on it but in reality are unwilling to change.
I also think that many of the people on welfare would simply learn how to game the system and the low paid entry level government workers would not give a damn about it as long as they make their numbers and keep a pay cheque coming in.
I'm not sure we'll ever know the real number of welfare fraud cases but I would suspect it is a small percentage and primarily done from "out of country" sources.
At they end of the day, you can't make someone work if they don't want to and no company wants people like that in their company (they have enough HR issues)
Unless Canada decides to set up work camps, we're stuck with Welfare and those that use and abuse it.
I guess my version would be , I know of three people that have gamed the support system. If I know three and I’m one of 3million , I’m guessing there are lots more , and second /third generation. They know how to get an apartment, how to get groceries and transport passes, and they teach others . I have no clue how to fix it , but not supporting it is a start .
Except it's not 10 times the convicted amount. I think every person on the forum knows of one or more people cheating ODSP or welfare. Honestly, I expect the number to be well over 50% of recipients are cheating (especially ODSP, get approved once and get cheques forever with very little followup).
I don’t know any. I know people who had to claim social assistance of one form or another at some point for genuine reasons.
The $5 billion figure is also very conservative.
We could play this game all day but I think you understand that in terms of dollar amounts you are paying for a shortfall in revenue caused by those who can most afford to pay their share rather than those who can’t.
$5 billion is the conservative estimate of taxes lost to questionable practices for the purposes of avoiding paying tax. That figure is widely used in multiple sources but is also a few years old.
It’s true, the figures for welfare fraud are difficult to find. $100 million is a figure used in one report and that was based on convictions. Even if it’s 10 times that amount that’s still 20% of what could be recovered by ensuring the filthy rich and corporations pay their fair share. Mike keeps saying the richest x% pay x% of all taxes in Canada. That’s great, but unfortunately the amounts they should pay are determined by the relevant authorities and not the individuals themselves saying ” I think I’ve paid what I want to pay now”.
I’m not saying don’t pursue both, I’m saying one of these things is more than the other by a wide margin but the manufactured rage is usually directed at the welfare fraud rather than the white collar crime. Often as a means to detract from the bigger issue.
Welfare fraud is rarely investigated. A recent report by Bonny the Watchdog cridicized caseworkers who decided fraud investigations shouldn’t be part of their job. The dam bust when fraud investigations hit a backlog of 40k cases.
If anyone needs tips, ask any banker. The see this stuff all day long.
Mother-in-law was collecting disability. She was wheelchair bound with MS, diabetes and neuralgia. They were annually making her jump through hoops to prove that she couldn't walk. I'm not sure how the cheats beat the system, unless they have someone on the inside.
Mother-in-law was collecting disability. She was wheelchair bound with MS, diabetes and neuralgia. They were annually making her jump through hoops to prove that she couldn't walk. I'm not sure how the cheats beat the system, unless they have someone on the inside.
I knew people on welfare working fulltime for cash (and being horribly exploited by their emploers who knew what the game was). A few on odsp for addiction for a very long time. Very infrequent meetings required, yup, still impaired, see you next year.
Like most things the government touches, some people get raked over the coals and others get complete immunity. I have no idea how each group gets chosen (district, employee,disability, etc).
I have two friends on ODSP. One was a Thalidomide baby and looks the part. No issues putting out and taking in his dock at the cottage or riding his quads/sleds. The other had to jump through hoops, but received back pay from his claim date on after getting approved. He's the friend I ride off road moto with. I have to be on my game to keep up with him.
The guy has thalidomide issues because the relevant government agencies neglected to take into account the possibility of side effects from a health canada certified medication. That’s affected him for his entire life. I have no issues with him receiving assistance that I’d see more as compensation.
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