Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

[bryand]

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Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

The only fair way to charge motorcyclist for street parking is to put a transponder or RFID on the bike, perhaps as part of the license plate. The city could then charge per hour at a reduced rate and with less risk of the tag being stolen. unless they're prepared to implement a technological solution like that they should just keep parking free for bikes.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

The only fair way to charge motorcyclist for street parking is to put a transponder or RFID on the bike, perhaps as part of the license plate. The city could then charge per hour at a reduced rate and with less risk of the tag being stolen. unless they're prepared to implement a technological solution like that they should just keep parking free for bikes.

that only works for people that live there. what about out of towners.

 

[ViperZ]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

I think it was already posted somewhere - in some cities in UK, the motorcyclist pays for the street parking via SMS - you send an SMS with bike info and get charged like 1 pound for that SMS.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

I think it was already posted somewhere - in some cities in UK, the motorcyclist pays for the street parking via SMS - you send an SMS with bike info and get charged like 1 pound for that SMS.

All well and good, but it presumes the possession of a SMS enabled cell phone. I also have to wonder what the costs to the city are, for such a service, and if it would even pay for itself.

 

[madura]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

I can see few things happening, especially with Ford behind the wheel.

Free parking will be gone, then:

amount of parking tickets disputes in courts will be pretty much close to 1-1 ratio (or at least 90% of will fight it, and I strongly suggest we should), and most of the claims will be "I paid, but it flew away". Judges will get sick of it, and will dismiss almost all the cases. This is going to be another failed "photo radar" case.

But, if the city will invest good chunk of budget into new parking technology, at least like they have in Montreal (you pay for a particular parking spot), then we're out of luck. But at the same time, people will argue - "I never got that ticket - it flew away." And then city will need to invest into stickers tickets. More cost, more time spent arguing in parliament, more of OUR tax paid money wasted. Will the city get the money they invest into new technology back? Maybe some day, in 10 years, maybe. The qty of bikes on the streets will decrease; respect and awareness of bikes by cagers will decrease, resulting in more accidents and cost for healthcare and insurance. So where is the true benefit for the city? potential loss of income, or potential extra cost to the city, and ****** off bike riders?

Write to your local government and tell them it's bad idea!

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

I can see few things happening, especially with Ford behind the wheel.

Free parking will be gone, then:

amount of parking tickets disputes in courts will be pretty much close to 1-1 ratio (or at least 90% of will fight it, and I strongly suggest we should), and most of the claims will be "I paid, but it flew away". Judges will get sick of it, and will dismiss almost all the cases. This is going to be another failed "photo radar" case.

But, if the city will invest good chunk of budget into new parking technology, at least like they have in Montreal (you pay for a particular parking spot), then we're out of luck. But at the same time, people will argue - "I never got that ticket - it flew away." And then city will need to invest into stickers tickets. More cost, more time spent arguing in parliament, more of OUR tax paid money wasted. Will the city get the money they invest into new technology back? Maybe some day, in 10 years, maybe. The qty of bikes on the streets will decrease; respect and awareness of bikes by cagers will decrease, resulting in more accidents and cost for healthcare and insurance. So where is the true benefit for the city? potential loss of income, or potential extra cost to the city, and ****** off bike riders?

Write to your local government and tell them it's bad idea!

I think that goes a bit too far down the 'if you give a mouse a cookie' rabbit hole. The simple measure, for whether or not this should be done, is if it will at least pay for itself in a reasonable time frame. If not, then it's not viable.

 

[johnnycage]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

The problem with the whole "I paid and it flew away" is that you get a receipt with the time you purchase now. They will ask for the receipt as proof The fight is futile, greedy jerks in the world just want to see others suffer. That's the only reason this stupid issue exists.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

The problem with the whole "I paid and it flew away" is that you get a receipt with the time you purchase now. They will ask for the receipt as proof The fight is futile, greedy jerks in the world just want to see others suffer. That's the only reason this stupid issue exists.

Nope, that's not a problem 'now.' You've received a receipt, for years now, when you paid at a pay & display location. The issue was with people having to take hours of their precious time, to go down and fight a ticket (or have it cancelled), by showing a receipt when they had legitimately paid. The whole issue is discussed in a sticky post, at the top of the Law & HTA forum. It's worth reading.

 

[BC1100S]

Re: Motorcycle Parking in Toronto

I think it was already posted somewhere - in some cities in UK, the motorcyclist pays for the street parking via SMS - you send an SMS with bike info and get charged like 1 pound for that SMS.

Pay-By-Phone has been active in the Vancouver area for 5+ years. Once you register your licence plate - a 5 minute process - its a snap to buy time at any city parking meter/lot. Standard parking rates apply. No surcharge. Many private lots are now using the same technology.

 

[mindactivated]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I think requiring any motorist to have a phone as a mandatory device for parking a bike is out of the question, maybe to make things easier, sure. The current system simply won't work, even though you have receipts on the current tickets, the bottom line is if they're not secured in the vehicle and can lead to a huge amount of wasted time on the city's dime and yours.

So what option is left? re-vamp the current meters with something new, whether it be stickers that print your license plate, or a montreal like system which takes into account that you can have a bunch of bikes per spot (and what about the reduction in cost for that??)....

it's done in other cities, but hopefully they come back and say it's not feasible and just enforce the current laws more (like Rob keeps mentioning). Then there's the 2012 city of toronto labour disruption that's around the corner. I'm sure this will put a delay on this whole issue for a while.

 

[knowledge]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Bad news, guys. The different green P lots are slowly gonna be sold over the next couple of years. Basically a huge lump sum, upfront. With that in mind, the cost of implementing new systems is a non-issue, and actually makes a lot of sense.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: partial fees would solve the problem. Let time for motorcycles be worth at least double (ie: pay for 30 minutes & you're covered for an hour vs. a car just being covered for 30 minutes). It would allow for the smallest changes in the already-existing system.

But tbh, if these lots get sold off (and there's a very high chance), then it makes sense for the city to re-invest in a new street parking system. While selling the lots will make a lot of money upfront, it's not the wiser decision in the long run and strategically, they're gonna need to be making more money by nickel-and-diming us from street parking.

I'm not happy about the changes, but I saw free parking as a privilege and just another perk to riding...not a right.

 

[Baggsy]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I wish that they'd start getting after fraudulent handicapped stickers instead.
From my anecdotal survey, only about 10% of people parking with the stickers should have them.
Many use it for free downtown parking for work.
I've seen people park, put the sticker on, grab heavy tools out of the trunk and then walk six blocks to work.

All they'd need would be to station a couple of people in the popular areas around Metro Hall from 7-9 and 4-6 and they'd be able to nail many people, and free up lots of parking spaces.

Calling Doctor Nick, Calling Doctor Nick.

 

[OpenGambit]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

What I think would be a decent idea is more of a graduated process.

I see no problem with improving the pay parking infrastructure to phone or whatever. I would expect that bikes continue to park for free at ticket spots until the ticket machines are replaced. (the losing ticket issue is just way too big)

So kinda like the way they did the HOV lanes.

 

[RetroGrouch]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

I'm not happy about the changes, but I saw free parking as a privilege and just another perk to riding...not a right.

This point is somehow lost on most riders. People cry louder when they are given something and have it taken away then if they were never given it in the first place.

 

[viper84737]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

This point is somehow lost on most riders. People cry louder when they are given something and have it taken away then if they were never given it in the first place.

It's not a simple mathematically neutralizing issue as you suggest. Humans try to advance their situation, so being set back is indeed worse than not advancing in the first place, because of lost time and effort which are intangible non-zero properties. As it relates to this issue, it takes effort to achieve something and more effort to undo it, as opposed to zero effort being expended for zero net change in the first place.

Anyway, so the Green Ps MIGHT be sold off, then? We don't know for sure? When will we know?

 

[mindactivated]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

This point is somehow lost on most riders. People cry louder when they are given something and have it taken away then if they were never given it in the first place.

Yeah but, it's not just about the whole right vs priviledge, it's also about not being a soulless "unfun" city. I remember when I was in high school I would leave Btown in my mom's car (yeah that's right, I was gangsta!) at like 5:30pm and arrive in downtown Toronto right at 6pm after the rush hour no-parking rule - and parking was free!!! You could park anywhere for free, and I had no job and went to the record store and with what little money I had I was able to enjoy Toronto as a 17 year old.

Maybe that's more of a "when I was a youngin'" type of rant (even though I'm in my early 30s)... but the city's definitely not as fun and cheap as it used to be, and when you have to pay $3.50 / hour for street parking it really adds up quickly. It's okay though, I'll be moving into a condo downtown soon so my bike will probably get stolen and I won't have to worry about parking anymore.

 

[slogan]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

well, I think the Green-P lots have nothing to do with street parking. The Green P was just processing payments for street parking (and it's sometimes damn slow!)
The only thing that the change has to be reasonable. If the motorcycle parking will cost 5-7 times less than the car parking - this will be reasonable. And I don't care what those guys will have to do to upgrade the payment system, and their expenses...
But if they gonna try to charge bikes same or half price of a car - I gonna park my bike parallel, so nobody could park in the same spot I paid for. And, yes, reduce my ridings downtown...

Does anybody know the outcome from the Jan4th open discussion so far?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

This point is somehow lost on most riders. People cry louder when they are given something and have it taken away then if they were never given it in the first place.

It might be considered an entitlement by some, but it was fixing an inequity in the system to others.

 

[knowledge]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Anyway, so the Green Ps MIGHT be sold off, then? We don't know for sure? When will we know?

Sorry, they will be...the question is in what order. The one in Yorkville just got sold off for a tidy sum and they're either gonna build a hotel or condo on top. The one across ACC is already in talks of being sold. The one across st. Lawrence market is also in talks. Basically, most of the major lots downtown. They'll be sold for condo space, but parking lots will be under them when they're rebuilt. But the lots will be private, so the prices are gonna be worse than they already are.

Yeah but, it's not just about the whole right vs priviledge, it's also about not being a soulless "unfun" city. I remember when I was in high school I would leave Btown in my mom's car (yeah that's right, I was gangsta!) at like 5:30pm and arrive in downtown Toronto right at 6pm after the rush hour no-parking rule - and parking was free!!! You could park anywhere for free, and I had no job and went to the record store and with what little money I had I was able to enjoy Toronto as a 17 year old.

That sounds like you're just drawing up on entitlement and nostalgia, though. Those are all nice things to have, but I don't see that as something that we're entitled to (but then again, it might just be a difference in culture).

well, I think the Green-P lots have nothing to do with street parking. The Green P was just processing payments for street parking (and it's sometimes damn slow!)

It has everything to do with street parking. The police might do most of the tagging, but who do you think manages the tickets that people get? Who collects the money from the machines? The Local 416 contract ends in about 2 years, so that's when you guys will start seeing major changes.

Rob, is it really much of an inequity? The issue was that the tickets never never stayed on the bike. So now they're saying they're willing to fix that issue and now everyone's changing their argument to "oh, but it's gonna be too expensive to implement such a system...I guarantee it!" We want free parking - and I don't blame you guys; 'cause I want it too. But we're gonna need better arguments, especially since they have more say in the matter than the public does.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Rob, is it really much of an inequity? The issue was that the tickets never never stayed on the bike. So now they're saying they're willing to fix that issue and now everyone's changing their argument to "oh, but it's gonna be too expensive to implement such a system...I guarantee it!" We want free parking - and I don't blame you guys; 'cause I want it too. But we're gonna need better arguments, especially since they have more say in the matter than the public does.

The city's argument is that they want to remove the 'free ride', that some people have been receiving. They need the money and feel that people who haven't been paying into the system should, so that it's properly supported. They state that motorcyclists fall into this group, but the 'free ride' was intended to redress inequities in the system. Simply reinstating the charges undoes the redress that motorcyclists received, because the system didn't adequately deal with their realities. Using a system, that causes costs to the city to be fundamentally increased, defeats the purpose of the action. Asking that people who are using the parking spaces possess a certain technology, in order to pay and track their payment, addresses the inequities to motorcyclists, but then extends an inequity to a different group (those without cell phones, that are capable of texting).

It's not changing the argument; it's stating all of the issues that it contains. This isn't a one-dimensional issue. Making changes in one area effects another. The total situation involves motorcyclists, tax-payers, the city, and other motorists. Ideally the solution should be equitable to all.

And, as I've stated before, this issue doesn't impact me. I pay an annual fee for a motorcycle parking spot, that is provided by my employer. Despite the 'free' on-street parking, I have continued do so.

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