Motorcycle industry is in deep trouble and needs help fast

[bigpoppa]

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That's not what the quote refers to.

There are ongoing costs related to owning stuff. Maintenance, security, fees, taxes, etc.

For example, you may own your motorcycle outright. But insurance, vehicle licensing, maintenance, cleaning, storage, are all costs that are incurred vs not owning a motorcycle in the first place. You will have to work to keep on owning your stuff. Ergo, your stuff owns you.

The quote about "you owning stuff vs stuff owning you" is attributed to the minimalism movement advocating paring down possessions to just what you need, and avoiding the excess that eventually chews up not just your money and time, but mental real estate.

Disclaimer: I'm not a rabid minimalist. I may not own a lot of stuff but I do like stuff. Especially motorcycles...

You have to be wise to realize just how important this really is.

its not just monetary value, your 'baby' that you paid all that money for is constantly on your mind, your worried someone might steal it(apartment dwellers)

If you have a mortgage, car payments, other obligations, you cant just pick up and leave, pack up and go on an extended vacation to an island, move to a different state, go on an adventure, etc etc.

After years of headaches and stresses at work, financial worries, cant just say, **** it im out. Your stuck. Owned by all the stuff you have accumulated

Your in debt, and your belongings have you by your balls.

 

[Hack]

After years of headaches and stresses at work, financial worries, cant just say, **** it im out. Your stuck. Owned by all the stuff you have accumulated

Your in debt, and your belongings have you by your balls.

But... "He who dies with the most toys wins"

 

[48Connor]

I'm a little late to the party, but I've read through the thread and thought of a few points. While I'm not sure if I'm considered a millennial (born in '95), I feel I can add a bit to the conversation.

To reiterate what's already been said, bike manufacturers aren't advertising to young people. Showing $15000 motorcycles racing around the city at night is garbage advertising, but every goddamn company does it. Companies should be advertising their sub 700cc cheaper bikes. The Groms, the 300cc's, the FZ07's, the DRZ's, the WR's. Take a note from every other industry. People like to do things in groups - advertise people having fun riding in groups. Look at any Grom group ride video on Youtube and tell me you don't want a Grom after that. Want to sell a dual sport in the GTA? 10 second commercial, starts with you on the bike in grid lock on the 401, rider looks around, takes off into the grass shoulder, off the highway, and starts ripping around town. Flash up the bike name and a sub $10k price point. Done, sold. Instead companies are advertising bikes that (in Ontario) insurance would be worth more than the bike in 2 years (for a young person).

I've wanted a bike since I was 13. Always wanted a sport bike because that's all you really see advertised besides Harley's, but until watching videos of Jakethegardensnake doing dumb stuff on a DRZ that became the new dream bike, so I bought one new when I was 20. I look around the parking lot of my uni, most bikes are dual sports, FZ07's, or 300cc sport bikes. But you never see these bikes advertised, at least I don't.

Another thing brought up in this thread about kids being into cars or working on their own car, all seems to come from their parents. If their parents (dad) were into cars/Motorsports, they are into it. I agree interest is declining, mostly due to the ever increasing difficulty to work on your car. More electronics and cheaper material makes modifying anything extremely difficult, and most people only do bolt-ons so they don't have to mess around with on-board computers. Plus emissions if its post '87. I think people (ages 40-70) believe it's taking a drastic decline because kids now aren't interested in their own collector cars. You grew up in the muscle cars days of the 60's so you own them now. Carbureted and fast in a straight line. Millennials grew up with Japanese sports cars. The GTR's, Supras, RX7's, and Eclipses, lighter, quicker, and could go around a corner. Those are the cars they are interested in, and with their booming price over the last 5 years, it's become obvious. The price of your 67 Chevelle or Charger isn't going up anymore. She peaked about 8 years ago, and it's never coming back again. Your generation is last to truly enjoy them.

I'm a few working years out from owning a house, but being 4 months away from graduating university and talking to other 'millennials,' most of them are way more focused on their big after graduation trip then where they are going to live. I'd like to travel, but I'd rather keep the $5k in my account and keep saving for a house. So I'll stay around here after graduation.

I remember first year of uni, 2013, a group of us talked about buying a house near campus to avoid paying rent in our last(now this) year. It's 2013, North Oshawa, new builds popping up everywhere for $350-400k. Divide $400k across 6 people who just all came off of 16 month internships and it's not unrealistic money were talking about. Plan was to keep it as a rental after we graduate and buy out the others who lost interest until one person was left with full ownership. Now you can't find a house up there less than $650k, with most around $800k, some upwards of $1.1M. Really put an end to that plan fast.

Same story for cottages. You older folk will most likely be the last to buy them (in masses). Places around my parents sit on the market for months to a year. Can't sell them any more. People can't afford a house, let alone a cottage. Cottage ownership for us will be what your parents left for you when they go. At least cottage prices are going down, if any of you are on the market. I actually know someone who bought a cottage first, just to get a foot in the door of land ownership. Not really an investment though.

 

[AllistonGT]

I'm a little late to the party, but I've read through the thread and thought of a few points. While I'm not sure if I'm considered a millennial (born in '95), I feel I can add a bit to the conversation.

To reiterate what's already been said, bike manufacturers aren't advertising to young people. Showing $15000 motorcycles racing around the city at night is garbage advertising, but every goddamn company does it. Companies should be advertising their sub 700cc cheaper bikes. The Groms, the 300cc's, the FZ07's, the DRZ's, the WR's. Take a note from every other industry. People like to do things in groups - advertise people having fun riding in groups. Look at any Grom group ride video on Youtube and tell me you don't want a Grom after that. Want to sell a dual sport in the GTA? 10 second commercial, starts with you on the bike in grid lock on the 401, rider looks around, takes off into the grass shoulder, off the highway, and starts ripping around town. Flash up the bike name and a sub $10k price point. Done, sold. Instead companies are advertising bikes that (in Ontario) insurance would be worth more than the bike in 2 years (for a young person).

I've wanted a bike since I was 13. Always wanted a sport bike because that's all you really see advertised besides Harley's, but until watching videos of Jakethegardensnake doing dumb stuff on a DRZ that became the new dream bike, so I bought one new when I was 20. I look around the parking lot of my uni, most bikes are dual sports, FZ07's, or 300cc sport bikes. But you never see these bikes advertised, at least I don't.

Another thing brought up in this thread about kids being into cars or working on their own car, all seems to come from their parents. If their parents (dad) were into cars/Motorsports, they are into it. I agree interest is declining, mostly due to the ever increasing difficulty to work on your car. More electronics and cheaper material makes modifying anything extremely difficult, and most people only do bolt-ons so they don't have to mess around with on-board computers. Plus emissions if its post '87. I think people (ages 40-70) believe it's taking a drastic decline because kids now aren't interested in their own collector cars. You grew up in the muscle cars days of the 60's so you own them now. Carbureted and fast in a straight line. Millennials grew up with Japanese sports cars. The GTR's, Supras, RX7's, and Eclipses, lighter, quicker, and could go around a corner. Those are the cars they are interested in, and with their booming price over the last 5 years, it's become obvious. The price of your 67 Chevelle or Charger isn't going up anymore. She peaked about 8 years ago, and it's never coming back again. Your generation is last to truly enjoy them.

I'm a few working years out from owning a house, but being 4 months away from graduating university and talking to other 'millennials,' most of them are way more focused on their big after graduation trip then where they are going to live. I'd like to travel, but I'd rather keep the $5k in my account and keep saving for a house. So I'll stay around here after graduation.

I remember first year of uni, 2013, a group of us talked about buying a house near campus to avoid paying rent in our last(now this) year. It's 2013, North Oshawa, new builds popping up everywhere for $350-400k. Divide $400k across 6 people who just all came off of 16 month internships and it's not unrealistic money were talking about. Plan was to keep it as a rental after we graduate and buy out the others who lost interest until one person was left with full ownership. Now you can't find a house up there less than $650k, with most around $800k, some upwards of $1.1M. Really put an end to that plan fast.

Same story for cottages. You older folk will most likely be the last to buy them (in masses). Places around my parents sit on the market for months to a year. Can't sell them any more. People can't afford a house, let alone a cottage. Cottage ownership for us will be what your parents left for you when they go. At least cottage prices are going down, if any of you are on the market. I actually know someone who bought a cottage first, just to get a foot in the door of land ownership. Not really an investment though.

I enjoyed reading your comments. Well stated. After high school I worked at nortel for 2 years (1984) then was laid off. Started a trade and hit the ground running. Never once thought what I was doing was any big sacrifice but I guess it was. You'll do well. Best of luck after Graduating.

 

[48Connor]

I enjoyed reading your comments. Well stated. After high school I worked at nortel for 2 years (1984) then was laid off. Started a trade and hit the ground running. Never once thought what I was doing was any big sacrifice but I guess it was. You'll do well. Best of luck after Graduating.

I knew I had heard of Nortel before, but couldn't remember where. Good thing you got out of there early, eh? haha

Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully engineering is the right path for me. We'll see how she goes.

 

[bigpoppa]

I knew I had heard of Nortel before, but couldn't remember where. Good thing you got out of there early, eh? haha

Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully engineering is the right path for me. We'll see how she goes.

Hopefully you like indian/asian guys and no girls

 

[Blackfin]

I'm a little late to the party, but I've read through the thread and thought of a few points. While I'm not sure if I'm considered a millennial (born in '95), I feel I can add a bit to the conversation.

To reiterate what's already been said, bike manufacturers aren't advertising to young people. Showing $15000 motorcycles racing around the city at night is garbage advertising, but every goddamn company does it. Companies should be advertising their sub 700cc cheaper bikes. The Groms, the 300cc's, the FZ07's, the DRZ's, the WR's. Take a note from every other industry. People like to do things in groups - advertise people having fun riding in groups. Look at any Grom group ride video on Youtube and tell me you don't want a Grom after that. Want to sell a dual sport in the GTA? 10 second commercial, starts with you on the bike in grid lock on the 401, rider looks around, takes off into the grass shoulder, off the highway, and starts ripping around town. Flash up the bike name and a sub $10k price point. Done, sold. Instead companies are advertising bikes that (in Ontario) insurance would be worth more than the bike in 2 years (for a young person).

I haven't seen much TV advertising except maybe Honda's CBR500R ad from a year ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gmmW2gTxU

Maybe their research shows that the market they're after doesn't watch TV much anymore. Who knows? Maybe they're being more strategic in their advertising and its showing up in on-line ads on popular social media sites or something...

Honda was famous for their "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" campaign in the 1960s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9wBHW2160

which attempted to get more women and "regular" folks on bikes during a time when the Hells Angels -- and movies etc -- were projecting an entirely different face to the motorcycling world. Interesting how that first ad begins showing gridlock

Another thing brought up in this thread about kids being into cars or working on their own car, all seems to come from their parents. If their parents (dad) were into cars/Motorsports, they are into it. I agree interest is declining, mostly due to the ever increasing difficulty to work on your car.

General maintenance needs haven't changed much; filters, oil, plugs etc. The only thing not really needed anymore is messing around with choke breaks and fast-idle cams and mixture screws etc. But virtually no one does even the basic maintenance any more. I work in robotics and most of the young mechanical engineers I work with don't even do their own seasonal wheel/tire swaps because they've never actually touched anything on a car in their lives. Very little "practical" experience -- and interest -- at all.

More electronics and cheaper material makes modifying anything extremely difficult, and most people only do bolt-ons so they don't have to mess around with on-board computers. Plus emissions if its post '87. I think people (ages 40-70) believe it's taking a drastic decline because kids now aren't interested in their own collector cars. You grew up in the muscle cars days of the 60's so you own them now. Carbureted and fast in a straight line. Millennials grew up with Japanese sports cars. The GTR's, Supras, RX7's, and Eclipses...

Actually, the electronics on these cars make them extremely easy to mod: all you had to do was plug in a chip or a programmer to flash the ECU and in seconds increase the turbo boost for more power. That was way easier than the tube headers and cams and gears and **** the old timers had to do. The modification eco-system that evolved during the 90s -- companies like HKS and the like -- meant that anyone with a 4G63 could easily build a 400HP Talon or Eclipse with more in-depth wrenching. Alas, that too is dying. General disinterest by millenials, insurance, government regulation etc are all forces killing that industry.

Cars like the Focus RS and Subaru STi and Civic Type R don't have the OTD affordability of their forebears and many will end up discontinued or sold in foreign markets due to lack of interest here.

The price of your 67 Chevelle or Charger isn't going up anymore. She peaked about 8 years ago, and it's never coming back again. Your generation is last to truly enjoy them.

Sorry, not true. Check out outfits like Mecum and Barrett Jackson to see how desirable and expensive rare musclecars from the 1960s are. When's the last time you even saw an Eclipse or a 3000GT VR4 on the street? Or the last time you saw a decent mid-90s Civic that hadn't been ruined with some ****** bodykit or ravaged by rust? A mint FD RX-7 or A80 Supra is probably worth some money but good luck finding any that are unmolested and they'd be bought by someone in their 50s, not in their 20s.

Maybe in 30 years there will be a crazy collector market for mid-90s Japanese iron but I doubt it. By that time, the Boomers will be dead and the millennials will be the old greybeards that should be into cars: You think they will be?

Same story for cottages. You older folk will most likely be the last to buy them (in masses). Places around my parents sit on the market for months to a year. Can't sell them any more. People can't afford a house, let alone a cottage. Cottage ownership for us will be what your parents left for you when they go. At least cottage prices are going down, if any of you are on the market. I actually know someone who bought a cottage first, just to get a foot in the door of land ownership. Not really an investment though.

The problem here is that there will always be the 1%ers for whom a "cottage" is this:

instead of what it used to be, in the style of:

There will always be rich celebs, sports personalities etc to trade in and build these behemoths in Muskoka, knocking down whatever humble little hut sits there now in favor of these huge villas. Properties may not move fast but the wealthy that own them are likely rarely in a hurry to sell and can sit on a multi-million dollar asking price for years. For them it is an investment and they're usually in it for the long-run.

 

[Wingboy]

Okay.This thread has gone way off topic.Put it back on track before it goes to trash talk and infractions are distributed.Winter has just started folks.

 

[48Connor]

Hopefully you like indian/asian guys and no girls

God this is too true

EDIT: Didn't see Wingboy's post. Something something motorcycles are to expensive.

 

[Blackfin]

I don't agree with some of what's written but a pretty interesting read nonetheless:

http://www.motorcycle.com/features/whatever-moto-inequality.html

 

[ToSlow]

The price of your 67 Chevelle or Charger isn't going up anymore. She peaked about 8 years ago, and it's never coming back again. Your generation is last to truly enjoy them.


wow, find a matching numbers mopar and find out what the price is, it will set you on your butt.

 

[bigpoppa]

I dont know about the entire motorcycle industry, but harley can start by making fun/cool bikes that dont cost $20000

Heck if I like the Indian bobber on the demo day, I might get that instead (on a side note, can you get into the hells angels if your on a metric? what about a sport bike? do you HAVE to have a harley?)

 

[ToSlow]

I dont know about the entire motorcycle industry, but harley can start by making fun/cool bikes that dont cost $20000

Heck if I like the Indian bobber on the demo day, I might get that instead (on a side note, can you get into the hells angels if your on a metric? what about a sport bike? do you HAVE to have a harley?)

what i see a lot of on the roads are people moving into the dual sport bike category

 

[J_F]

Okay.This thread has gone way off topic.Put it back on track before it goes to trash talk and infractions are distributed.Winter has just started folks.

don't see any smileys.....so I guess you're serious?

personally, I think it's probably the best thread currently on the go
all I see is a bunch of guys sharing life experiences and thoughts
and OP has indicated he is all good with the dialogue

what on earth in this thread could be considered an infraction?

prolly get banned for this....oh well

 

[48Connor]

I haven't seen much TV advertising except maybe Honda's CBR500R ad from a year ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gmmW2gTxU

Maybe their research shows that the market they're after doesn't watch TV much anymore. Who knows? Maybe they're being more strategic in their advertising and its showing up in on-line ads on popular social media sites or something...

Honda was famous for their "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" campaign in the 1960s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9wBHW2160

which attempted to get more women and "regular" folks on bikes during a time when the Hells Angels -- and movies etc -- were projecting an entirely different face to the motorcycling world. Interesting how that first ad begins showing gridlock



General maintenance needs haven't changed much; filters, oil, plugs etc. The only thing not really needed anymore is messing around with choke breaks and fast-idle cams and mixture screws etc. But virtually no one does even the basic maintenance any more. I work in robotics and most of the young mechanical engineers I work with don't even do their own seasonal wheel/tire swaps because they've never actually touched anything on a car in their lives. Very little "practical" experience -- and interest -- at all.



Actually, the electronics on these cars make them extremely easy to mod: all you had to do was plug in a chip or a programmer to flash the ECU and in seconds increase the turbo boost for more power. That was way easier than the tube headers and cams and gears and **** the old timers had to do. The modification eco-system that evolved during the 90s -- companies like HKS and the like -- meant that anyone with a 4G63 could easily build a 400HP Talon or Eclipse with more in-depth wrenching. Alas, that too is dying. General disinterest by millenials, insurance, government regulation etc are all forces killing that industry.

Cars like the Focus RS and Subaru STi and Civic Type R don't have the OTD affordability of their forebears and many will end up discontinued or sold in foreign markets due to lack of interest here.



Sorry, not true. Check out outfits like Mecum and Barrett Jackson to see how desirable and expensive rare musclecars from the 1960s are. When's the last time you even saw an Eclipse or a 3000GT VR4 on the street? Or the last time you saw a decent mid-90s Civic that hadn't been ruined with some ****** bodykit or ravaged by rust? A mint FD RX-7 or A80 Supra is probably worth some money but good luck finding any that are unmolested and they'd be bought by someone in their 50s, not in their 20s.

Maybe in 30 years there will be a crazy collector market for mid-90s Japanese iron but I doubt it. By that time, the Boomers will be dead and the millennials will be the old greybeards that should be into cars: You think they will be?



The problem here is that there will always be the 1%ers for whom a "cottage" is this:



instead of what it used to be, in the style of:



There will always be rich celebs, sports personalities etc to trade in and build these behemoths in Muskoka, knocking down whatever humble little hut sits there now in favor of these huge villas. Properties may not move fast but the wealthy that own them are likely rarely in a hurry to sell and can sit on a multi-million dollar asking price for years. For them it is an investment and they're usually in it for the long-run.

I'll try to keep this on topic to the original post to keep the mods happy.

I've heard that Honda slogan but never saw the ads. Great minds thing alike I say hahah. I find targeted advertising around motorcycles not that worthwhile. If I look up a CBR300, I get ads for a CBR300. They aren't selling me a bike anymore, I knew it existed, I was interested enough to look it up, they are just reminding me of it, which I don't believe is that helpful. I don't get ads for a GSXR600 after I look up a CBR, because I don't think google ads work all that well when things aren't directly related. I have no doubt these companies complaining about loosing sales run online campaigns, and who else but them really knows how effective they are. Even then, they are selling bikes to people who have bikes/interested in bikes, not doing what they need to do, which is getting new people into the sport. Pop-up shops for small brands seem to an effective marketing strategy these days for clothing. Maybe Honda should push a bunch of bikes into the middle of the Eaton center in May and try to attract new riders. Having demo days and the Toronto motorcycle show are attracting people who mostly already ride, or are very interested, not new people. It's laziness of these companies that are killing themselves off.

Ok, I feel like I can venture somewhat off topic now.

While I rotate my own tires on my daily, I don't change my own oil. I've pulled and rebuilt engines before, I just couldn't be bothered to do it on my daily driver. It's not even like doing it is a lot of work, I just don't want the hassle of getting rid of the oil after. Hell, last summer I cut into the main body harness of my Ram to install a factory back up camera. Still never touched the drain plug before. I've had the entire front clip off the thing to change hood, grill, and bumper, ripped the entire interior out to install a new center console and center dash, and have no idea what the filter looks like. For the $80 at the dealer, the savings of DIYing it aren't worth it.

I don't mean tuners. ECU tuners are neat and all, but I mean doing real mods to a car. If I wanted to swap a 2JZ into a BRZ, I'd need to run dual ECU's, or got for a new stand alone and loose all the electronics in the car. And the Civic Type R will fail because dealers are adding $30k in mark up, and no Honda is worth that.

You're right, there are many muscle cars that will continue to increase and value, but there are many that people will dump $40k into a car that will be worth $28k once it's done. Ever been to Autofest in Oshawa? Thats like 75% of the cars there. The price of the average 60's car in your neighbors garage is only going down. My dad has a 66 Charger. Not really a desirable car, like most cars from the 60's, but I like it because its his. And most kids my age are the same. We don't really like muscle cars, we like it because it was theirs, and that mentality probably will never change.

For a mk4 Supra, 2J, 6 speed, hardtop, in good shape, probably look at $50-75k. There is one for sale with like 17k miles in New York with a big single for $100k USD. Dream car right there.

 

[48Connor]

The price of your 67 Chevelle or Charger isn't going up anymore. She peaked about 8 years ago, and it's never coming back again. Your generation is last to truly enjoy them.


wow, find a matching numbers mopar and find out what the price is, it will set you on your butt.

There's always exceptions, but I'm still not wrong.



Gotta keep this on topic. Motorcycle companies should update their bikes more than once every 10 years *cough DRZ400 cough* and people would buy more.

 

[ToSlow]

This is going to be my next bike, can't wait till spring and see what they run like on a demo ride

 

[ToSlow]

my buddy has one of these bikes, the thing has all the bells and whistles like a cruiser

 

[MacDoc]

Motorcycle companies should update their bikes more than once every 10 years

Yet KLR650s sold for 20 years successfully .....I'd prefer fewer yearly changes...

 

[Mad Mike]

That's not what the quote refers to.

There are ongoing costs related to owning stuff. Maintenance, security, fees, taxes, etc.

For example, you may own your motorcycle outright. But insurance, vehicle licensing, maintenance, cleaning, storage, are all costs that are incurred vs not owning a motorcycle in the first place. You will have to work to keep on owning your stuff. Ergo, your stuff owns you.

The quote about "you owning stuff vs stuff owning you" is attributed to the minimalism movement advocating paring down possessions to just what you need, and avoiding the excess that eventually chews up not just your money and time, but mental real estate.

Disclaimer: I'm not a rabid minimalist. I may not own a lot of stuff but I do like stuff. Especially motorcycles...

You are correct with ongoing costs of owning stuff, but that's a way too simple view of things.

There are also costs of 'not owning stuff', that's why we 'invest' in things like houses and motorcycles. Folks my age bought houses in the 80's that cost 6x our salary - the plan was to be free and clear of debt in 30 years so retirement could be easier. I drive a pickup as my daily driver because I need a truck often enough that it makes sense to have one, I also ride a motorcycle mostly from April to November -- the fuel cost I save riding makes the combo cheaper than just having a truck - plus my mental real estate portfolio gets expanded, not wasted by having more stuff.

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