Motorcycle crash captured on dashcam

I haven't read the whole thread yet but here's my opinion. Total rider error & probably a noob. Look at the lane positioning. It doesn't help that a cruiser like that handles like a boat. I've locked up my rear on numerous times, have had that thing endo'ed on me, still keep it straight. One time I wasn't paying attention & I endo'ed all the way to the light. Love the look on everybody's face. All braking was regulated at the front to keep it up. However with a cruiser like that stopping something like that is like stopping a ship on a dime
 
taximan62 said:
I can't disagree more about your statement on push steering. A new rider does need to know about it for a very good reason.

Yes for the most part a rider will do it instinctively but what happens when suddenly they get into a situation where they need to suddenly swerve or tighten up a turn. If they don't know that you need to push on the bar in the direction you want to go they will instinctively try to steer the bike by turning the bars the way they want to go and go the opposite direction and crash most likely!
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They won't know what to do from a MSF course either. Just like emergency braking, emergency avoidance needs to be practiced and used regularly until it becomes a habit. An emergency is no time to recollect and try to force yourself to apply proper technique!

Better to leave the higher level of riding skills to be discovered later, as an honest reminder to newbies that they are vulnerable, that they need to keep things slow and steady with the limited abilities that they have.
 
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RockerGuy said:
I haven't read the whole thread yet but here's my opinion. Total rider error & probably a noob. Look at the lane positioning. It doesn't help that a cruiser like that handles like a boat. I've locked up my rear on numerous times, have had that thing endo'ed on me, still keep it straight. One time I wasn't paying attention & I endo'ed all the way to the light. Love the look on everybody's face. All braking was regulated at the front to keep it up. However with a cruiser like that stopping something like that is like stopping a ship on a dime
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"Endo" means end over end. Like tumbling forward. It's a type of crash. You probably mean "stoppie".
 
fastar1 said:
They won't know what to do from a MSF course either. Just like emergency braking, emergency avoidance needs to be practiced and used regularly until it becomes a habit. An emergency is no time to recollect and try to force yourself to apply proper technique!

Better to leave the higher level of riding skills to be discovered later, as an honest reminder to newbies that they are vulnerable, that they need to keep things slow and steady with the limited abilities that they have.
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+1

If something bad happens, due to someone else's stupidity or your inattentiveness, available reaction time is minuscule and the response is based on muscle memory or instinct. I think there is very little or no time for conscious thought in the process and, frankly, if you have time to assess various options then it's not really a "panic" or emergency situation at all. Based on experience or previous training reinforced by practice you respond and you are successful or you are not.

The unfortunate thing for new riders is that it can take some time to learn proper riding techniques and to ingrain these so that responses are automatic or instinctive and during this period new riders are especially susceptible to "panic" type situations (locking the rear brake and holding it like grim death) where they do the wrong thing and then their body locks up until they crash.
 
I am so so glad I decided not to try and correct the myriad of errors,
and opinions disguised as facts, on this thread.

There are just so many, as to make it a nigh impossible task. Good luck if you try.

Beware!!!
 
taximan62 said:
I can't disagree more about your statement on push steering. A new rider does need to know about it for a very good reason.

Yes for the most part a rider will do it instinctively but what happens when suddenly they get into a situation where they need to suddenly swerve or tighten up a turn. If they don't know that you need to push on the bar in the direction you want to go they will instinctively try to steer the bike by turning the bars the way they want to go and go the opposite direction and crash most likely!
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I have never found myself in a situation where I had to think to which side I should pull of push my handle, you learn that when you first ride a bicycle .. if you get on a motorcycle and have to thing about which way you need to steer and does not come instinctively then please stop and walk home.
 
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ZX600 said:
I have never found myself in a situation where I had to think to which side I should pull of push my handle, you learn that when you first ride a bicycle .. if you get on a motorcycle and have to thing about which way you need to steer and does not come instinctively then please stop and walk home.
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And herein lies what I had trouble with. I found that maybe the way instructors explained it at the course made it much more confusing than it should have been. After watching the link that you sent me a while back (thanks again) I realized that I was correct in my line of thinking all along. It is something that we *all* instinctively do. (Still working on those sweeping turns, btw. Getting much better)

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk
 
Push steering came up at the M1 exit course. I was surprised honestly, thinking along the same lines of the fact that the differences between push and pull steering should be second nature to anyone who's ever ridden a bicycle. Many people wouldn't even realize they're performing push steering because, again, second nature.

It seemed to confuse some students who went on to overthink things when in reality they'd already been doing it.
 
Matt Rain said:
Learning Curves did not have us avoid the front brake at all. If anything we were told that the rear brake was more useful for low-speed maneuvers than it was for braking.

There does seem to be a sub-group of riders who are irrationally afraid of the front brake. Baffles me.
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Same as RTi - we practiced front brake modulation right from the start (JFD can testify!!). Still didn't stop me from instinctively panic-stopping and subsequent face-planting my CBR125 at the course tho LMFAO (mountain bike muscle memory, panic stop). I practice panic braking occasionally - never in a parking lot at the beginning of the season tho - those places are too dirty/sandy for my liking.

This rider did lots of wrong things here, IMO: wrong tire track, not enough traffic-situational awareness, no escape route planning, not enough (or no) front brake use, locked up the rear too long/panic brake.

but don't take my word for it; if you're just starting/learning - take a rider-training course.
 
taximan62 said:
Yet this happens when we panic and then our brain tells us to steer the bike and we forget to use push steering..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5Cttoi7dY
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You're making my point. "Forget to use push steering" is the default situation of every rider when they start and for months or years after. It's a cognitive problem which is corrected by making it instinctive. You can't tell someone to do something once and then expect they will apply it whenever they need, without ever repeating the exercise.

In fact regular riding trains us NOT to use push steering because we can't feel the effort of push steering at low speeds, and sometimes can get away without it by leaning. Most bikers are completely unaware of how they're balancing and steering the bike, even after being told about push-steer.

If this guy had known to keep it slow because he's only at level one and can't handle any aggressive riding yet, this crash wouldn't have happened.
 
Just telling some people to "lean the damn bike in the corners!" would induce the required input (push steering) automatically without complicating it by explaining the process...instead of the desired result.

Again, anyone who's ever ridden a bicycle naturally does push steering even though they may not be inherently aware of it. Tell them to lean hard around a corner and they'll do it without thinking. Tell them "don't forget to push steer around that next corner" and you may get a deer in the headlights result.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Just telling some people to "lean the damn bike in the corners!" would induce the required input (push steering) automatically without complicating it by explaining the process...instead of the desired result.

Again, anyone who's ever ridden a bicycle naturally does push steering even though they may not be inherently aware of it. Tell them to lean hard around a corner and they'll do it without thinking. Tell them "don't forget to push steer around that next corner" and you may get a deer in the headlights result.
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Totally agree. I was utterly confused when they tried teaching it to us. Thought I would get called out for not doing it. I didn't get called out, which confused me even more.

I got what "counter" steering meant the first time I went on the Gardiner. You're really only initiating the turn by briefly countersteering while transferring your weight into the turn. Beyond that the wheel settles in the normal, intuitive direction.

I don't think calling it "countersteering" makes much sense.
 
It's counterintuitive.
 
FLSTC said:
No, they're arguing that Counter Steering is Intuitive, and any explanation or training of this technique is Counterintuitive.
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Exactly. And there's no argument, we're all in complete agreement. I think.

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk
 
Unfortunately, I don't agree.

I believe that the M1-2 course should include an explanation of countersteering/push-steering, and should include the at-speed obstacle avoidance drill (which requires you to quickly bank/turn the motorcycle to avoid the obstacle and again to recover upright/straight).
 
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