That pretty much sums it up. This shouldn't have been a panic stop.
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Motorcycle crash captured on dashcam
- Thread starter FLSTC
- Start date
That pretty much sums it up. This shouldn't have been a panic stop.
Okay lets clear one thing up about the basic rider course. I was a senior instructor and taught the course for 12 years.
Early on in the course students are told that when braking in a straight line to use both brakes.
Most of the early part of the course is learning clutch control and slow speed control
Since we a are doing walking speed exercises with lots of left and right 90 degree turns we tell students to drag rear brake to assist in control and balance at slow speed and we tell them that when doing slow speed manouvers to only use rear brake beacuse if you are turning at slow speed and grab the front brake you are going to tuck the front tire and go down.
When we progress to riding at speed and doing braking excercises you are then told to use both brakes.
It is funny how many times I hear peoples descriptions of what they were told at a basic rider course and so many times what was said by an instructor is not what was HEARD by the student.
Early on in the course students are told that when braking in a straight line to use both brakes.
Most of the early part of the course is learning clutch control and slow speed control
Since we a are doing walking speed exercises with lots of left and right 90 degree turns we tell students to drag rear brake to assist in control and balance at slow speed and we tell them that when doing slow speed manouvers to only use rear brake beacuse if you are turning at slow speed and grab the front brake you are going to tuck the front tire and go down.
When we progress to riding at speed and doing braking excercises you are then told to use both brakes.
It is funny how many times I hear peoples descriptions of what they were told at a basic rider course and so many times what was said by an instructor is not what was HEARD by the student.
This was, with 100% certainty, not what we were told at my class. Like I said, I still vividly remember being told to "get your hand off the front brake, no front brakes!" at one point on the Saturday portion. Then later in the afternoon being told I *should* be using them after some apparent progression point.
Maybe it was a misinformed instructor? I'm just relaying my experience, that's all.
From your perspective as a former instructor, what's your opinion on the "if you lock the rear wheel, keep skidding and ride it to a stop" situation?
typical cruiser crash, no friggin clue how to emergency brake. Probably never practiced emergency type braking in his life....
On the BMW bike, same thing --hammers rear brake like a f --in moron expecting to stop with that first. Yeah , ok. rear brakes are stronger than front brakes.
Not sure why the abs didnt work on that bike. All the BMWs of that size have had ABS for years, should also be on the rear. YOu cannot deactivate rear only on BMW systems of that vintage.
BB
On the BMW bike, same thing --hammers rear brake like a f --in moron expecting to stop with that first. Yeah , ok. rear brakes are stronger than front brakes.
Not sure why the abs didnt work on that bike. All the BMWs of that size have had ABS for years, should also be on the rear. YOu cannot deactivate rear only on BMW systems of that vintage.
BB
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Look at his right foot. Rear brake get slammed on, he holds it and he crashes. Inexperienced or inattentive or simply a panic stop. Linked brakes or ABS would have kept him straight and he would not have crashed as he had plenty of room.
Once the slide starts simply easing up on the rear brake would slow the skid (don't release it all at once) and once you're going straight you can use front brake as you're supposed to in the first place. This assumes you have the presence of mind to ease off and this guy seemed to be in panic mode once he lost the rear end.
For those who have dirt bike experience usually much time is spent off road playing with the rear brake only and sliding to a stop with front wheel at full lock. I've done this dozens (hundreds ??) of times over the years with enduro, motocross and trials bikes as it's lots of fun and this experience can translate well to road riding as well. And no......., I don't do this for fun on my 800 lb. ST.
As to the second video of the BMW sliding around I thought all 1150/1200 R's come standard with ABS, so I don't understand how the rear end was sliding around?? Maybe ABS can be turned off and this rider demonstrates why it should be left on.
Once the slide starts simply easing up on the rear brake would slow the skid (don't release it all at once) and once you're going straight you can use front brake as you're supposed to in the first place. This assumes you have the presence of mind to ease off and this guy seemed to be in panic mode once he lost the rear end.
For those who have dirt bike experience usually much time is spent off road playing with the rear brake only and sliding to a stop with front wheel at full lock. I've done this dozens (hundreds ??) of times over the years with enduro, motocross and trials bikes as it's lots of fun and this experience can translate well to road riding as well. And no......., I don't do this for fun on my 800 lb. ST.
As to the second video of the BMW sliding around I thought all 1150/1200 R's come standard with ABS, so I don't understand how the rear end was sliding around?? Maybe ABS can be turned off and this rider demonstrates why it should be left on.
For a new rider the best advise is to keep it locked as there are too many variables involvedwhether letting off the brake is safe, is the bike still straight or is is fishtailing a bit, what is the road condition dry or wet, etc. With experience yes you can let go right away when you realize you locked up or you know you are not fishtailing and can do the same. With experience comes a whole new set of rules.
Too many people come in or out of a basic rider course thinking we are going to teach them everything there is to know about riding, if that were true the course would be days long. It is just that a BASIC RIDER TRAINING COURSE to give you the basics to get you on the road with the tools to ride safely. A good set of instructors emphasises this and encourages new riders to read more books, take advanced training and so on and continue to hone their skills.
Sadly most take the course and think well that's all I need and never work on improving their skills but that is the way a lot of people work unfortunately!
Too many people come in or out of a basic rider course thinking we are going to teach them everything there is to know about riding, if that were true the course would be days long. It is just that a BASIC RIDER TRAINING COURSE to give you the basics to get you on the road with the tools to ride safely. A good set of instructors emphasises this and encourages new riders to read more books, take advanced training and so on and continue to hone their skills.
Sadly most take the course and think well that's all I need and never work on improving their skills but that is the way a lot of people work unfortunately!
Bike are not like cages. A cage you stomp on the brake peddle and it remains composed. You can steer around or away or right into an obstacle. Avoid it or hit it and in general come away unscratched.
A bike?
There are so many variances. A new rider that learns on a standard bike and then tries a cruiser may not understand the best actions to take to avoid a collision.
My Sportster will never stand on its nose.
My Buell? In a heart beat. I'm doing a stoppie.
My sportster will wash out the front end in mid corner if I don't apply some rear brake.
The dynamics of a R3 are much more forgiving than Vulcan 500.
Or goldwing or name the style of bike.
That's why a noobie taking a course is basic. It can't cover every case.
And folks run off with an M2, ride a couple is seasons and before they know it, are jumping on a SS or monster cruiser and having all this great experience.
They know jack squat.
Because they assume the same principles apply to riding.
Toss in 2 up riding and weather? It gets ugly fast.
That's just riders.
Toss in traffic?
Yikes.
The first vid had a rider not looking ahead. Beyond the car ahead. Anticipating the slowdown in traffic. And then panicked.
Had the whole shoulder to just weave left and didn't need to apply brakes at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A bike?
There are so many variances. A new rider that learns on a standard bike and then tries a cruiser may not understand the best actions to take to avoid a collision.
My Sportster will never stand on its nose.
My Buell? In a heart beat. I'm doing a stoppie.
My sportster will wash out the front end in mid corner if I don't apply some rear brake.
The dynamics of a R3 are much more forgiving than Vulcan 500.
Or goldwing or name the style of bike.
That's why a noobie taking a course is basic. It can't cover every case.
And folks run off with an M2, ride a couple is seasons and before they know it, are jumping on a SS or monster cruiser and having all this great experience.
They know jack squat.
Because they assume the same principles apply to riding.
Toss in 2 up riding and weather? It gets ugly fast.
That's just riders.
Toss in traffic?
Yikes.
The first vid had a rider not looking ahead. Beyond the car ahead. Anticipating the slowdown in traffic. And then panicked.
Had the whole shoulder to just weave left and didn't need to apply brakes at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Or learn how to ride a damn bike, so much shoulder to go into. ABS does not fix stupidity
^ True statement - and this is something a lot of people don't get. The things that are taught to a newbie to keep them out of trouble in the short term aren't necessarily what they need to be locked into for life! Advanced skills can and should replace some of what is taught to a new rider.
I recall being taught to use all four fingers on a front brake. Don't try that on a newer bike with a Brembo radial master cylinder operating two 4-piston calipers on 330mm brake rotors!
Squeezing the gas tank with your knees is another one. Noobs aren't taught to stand on the pegs and hang off the side while dragging a knee on the ground. (and no, I don't do that on the street, but the concept of shifting weight side to side certainly applies)
" ... But they didn't teach me that in the basic rider's course ..." nope, advanced only, but that doesn't mean either the basic course was wrong nor the advanced course was wrong.
I recall being taught to use all four fingers on a front brake. Don't try that on a newer bike with a Brembo radial master cylinder operating two 4-piston calipers on 330mm brake rotors!
Squeezing the gas tank with your knees is another one. Noobs aren't taught to stand on the pegs and hang off the side while dragging a knee on the ground. (and no, I don't do that on the street, but the concept of shifting weight side to side certainly applies)
" ... But they didn't teach me that in the basic rider's course ..." nope, advanced only, but that doesn't mean either the basic course was wrong nor the advanced course was wrong.
Even more funny is how instructors knowing what you just said do not have steps on their course to ensure students actually understood basics like braking
We are not mind readers, we can`t always know what was said was not what was heard. Sometimes while at the course the student does hear correctly but over time after the course they forget or mix up what was trained.
This is why continuing to learn and read helps reinforce what was trained and hopefully corrects any misconceptions they may have developed.
I am sure many times a new rider comes out of a course with the right things in their head and over time they may mix up something and do something completly opposite of what was trained.
Train, paractice, retrain, learn more on and on again. I have been riding 37 years and every season I work on my skills, read and learn more. A rider never knows everything, ever!
Seriously? After 37 years? Are you relearning things you might have forgotten or learning new things? I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Are there any other comparable human endeavours that are as complicated that might put the complexity of motorcycling into perspective?
BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Stereotype much?
This was an experience issue, not a choice of bike issue. Chances are he'd have done the exact same thing has he been riding a sport bike. Where's your argument then?
C'mon...really?
I disagree. I can't tell you how many cruiser riders that I have talked to say they never use their front brakes because they are afraid it will make them crash.
Last time was at a HD demo day - my gf loves Hardley's, and I can't stand them. For Poops and Giggles I asked *ALL* of the HD test ride leaders how often they use the front brake. *ALL* of them said almost never, especially if the roads are wet. TWO of them claimed the front brake made them crash in previous years, and if they had used the rear only they would have been OK.
My opinion isn't based on a single incident like this, but I'm sure that if you asked most cruiser riders, especially HD riders, most (at least 60%) would say they never use the front brake... and those that do, very sparingly, because that's what other more experienced cruiser riders have told them to do.
It's not been my personal experience, and certainly isn't the way I ride, and if it's something that's being "passed down through the generations", it seems to me that anyone who doesn't start riding under some oldschool riders tutelage, it won't be a habit that's ever taught to them...so a brand new cruiser rider would be no more or no less likely to use their front brakes than a brand new sportbike rider? Or is there something that makes sportbike riders inherently more likely to use their front brake, barring any wrong (or poor) education?
If it's an oldschool thing, well, hopefully it's a habit that dies with that generation. With 20+ years in the commercial driving trade I've seen oldschool stupidity fade out and die with the last generation that didn't know better, so perhaps the same thing will happen here.
Yes I do still look for ways to improve. If I come across something that makes me a better rider I apply it. I am not saying at this point in my life I have epiphonies about riding but if I come across something that I can use I apply it. For instance I have never ridden dirt so I plan on taking Clinton Smouts dirt school this year.
Vote for Bernie!
Same with steering. At a regular road pace everyone knows how to steer a bike instinctively, because it's the same process as walking. Newbies don't need to know about push-to-turn, and too many people are confused about it anyways (I mean instructors). It's only at in hard turns that specific effort has to be made to do something that *feels* counter-intuitive, in order to get a bike to turn. That, along with rear brakes, should only be taught in a higher level course.
As for those riders who won't say they touch the front brake, they're the same ones who'll tell you they "had to lay 'er down" to avoid a crash. Is it really a good idea to distort the training for everybody, in order to accommodate these loonies? Of course not.
I can't disagree more about your statement on push steering. A new rider does need to know about it for a very good reason.
Yes for the most part a rider will do it instinctively but what happens when suddenly they get into a situation where they need to suddenly swerve or tighten up a turn. If they don't know that you need to push on the bar in the direction you want to go they will instinctively try to steer the bike by turning the bars the way they want to go and go the opposite direction and crash most likely!
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