PsychoKat
Well-known member
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MotoGP 2018
- Thread starter johnscruiser
- Start date
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The laptimes are so much faster now than back in the 500cc era.
For example, in Mugello, the last 500cc race in 2001, the fastest laptime was 1:54.994 (some guy name V. Rossi).
Last year it was 1:47.643
More powerful bikes (190hp vs 250hp), better brakes, suspension and electronics, tracks resurfaced with grippier materials. Perhaps tire/rubber technology has not kept pace and is now the limiting factor.
I remember in 2007, they went from 990cc to 800cc engines. The bikes still continued to break lap-times because of higher cornering speeds.
Back in the 500 days the talk was always about each rider and the pros and cons of their tire manufacturer since they used different ones.
Tire selection is up to the team and rider so that have a tire that gives the pace and the distance. Thats why they talk about tire selection of each rider based on their bike and rider preference.
In general pick a harder tire and get more longevity but a slower pace. Pick a softer tire and have a better pace but suffer on longevity. Rider skill and electronics aside.
Tires have advanced. But so has the pace. 2017 last place Motogp rider is completing laps faster and the race distance in less time, if not the same time, as the winning 500 bike 14 years ago.
Riceburner
Well-known member
1/ Wacky start for the history books. lol
2/ Amazing race.
3/ Shame for Jack.
4/ Marquez should have been black flagged. At least he's out of the points, but unfortunately he also took points away from VR.
2/ Amazing race.
3/ Shame for Jack.
4/ Marquez should have been black flagged. At least he's out of the points, but unfortunately he also took points away from VR.
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Well, I can accept that people don't like him as a rider/person, but his talent is undeniable and something to just marvel at regardless, who else can do what he does on 2 wheels?
I think 'the stupid mistakes' he makes (how many crashes last year?) are likely the reason he has no weaknesses on most race weekends. If you go to your personal limits every lap, you'll eventually just get comfortable with them and eventually surpass them. I mean his epic recoveries have just become routine now.
My only worry is how long he can keep that up.
Also, and this is being entirely selfish, I have the same suspicion you have have about him not really having the competition to really push himself to that next level. This is why I really wanted Vinales to win last year, he'd have that sinking feeling of having a title denied to him all winter long and he'd come back harder than ever, it didn't pan out that way.
Dovi was never really competition last year, and likely not this one either given the pace of the HRC, which is why things are so amicable; so he only has himself to compete against, and as someone pointed out: this was his Moto2 version that came out this weekend.
Then again, that is also the guy who would become the youngest champion in MotoGP history on his first attempt. And then won it again the following year... I think its those 'demons ' he has that allows him to be who he is, which can obviously backfire at times, but I think we're super lucky to be able to watch him ride in his 'Marquez Style' in this golden era.
Granted, but that is the extent of my track experience while on the track with other drivers on hot laps; and that bike in my avatar is mine, and an ex-racing bike from some series in the east coast; its a F4 with adjustable Ohlins suspension, vortex, willwood, race fairings etc... parts on it, but I'm really just a 'cager' and a total noob to two wheels and the only experience I have is chasing a professional MX rider on a supermoto on my birthday last year on it.
My tires were shot and it was getting cold by our last stint as the sun started to set but the truth is I was just way slower than him, so he would eventually lap me and when he did it was in a turn and I just let him pass as I could feel his engine coming by and heard him down shift gears and he took me on the inside into a sweeping left hand turn, which I didn't really like as it has a bad re-pavement job.
I'm just wondering where the Rossi who would do something similar to his opponents and say 'this is racing' and move on, because the current guy riding around is not the same guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4-AZuikiqo&feature=youtu.be&t=48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lboSRZT2XxI
PS: How can Dovi know what gear and know exactly when Marc is on the throttle on the last laps and yet Rossi (the most experienced rider on the grid) cannot discern who the rider 'that is after him' and is riding right beside him?
I'm ready to let this go, and see Marc destroy the field again in Austin as he always does, but these double standards need to be made clear: Rossi is not MotoGP.
PPS: Pedrosa had surgery due to his highside!
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Fock. If that guy wasn't made of glass he would have won a championship by now.
His stupid mistakes aren't his unforced crashes. His stupid decisions are clattering into the back of other riders because there was no way he was going to get stopped and make the turn without using that other rider as a berm.
Assen 2017, there was NO WAY Marquez was getting the bike slowed enough to make that final turn. It was a Hail Mary and the only way it was going to work was by hitting Rossi.
Argentina 2018, Marquez hit A.Espagaro, Morbidelli, Rabat and Rossi within one race. IMO his pass attempt on Rossi had a zero percent chance of being successful without contact.
If you go back and look at his riding in Moto2 and Moto3, and even through his first 2-3 motoGP seasons, this behavior is not an anomaly. This is how he rides and how he races. He races with zero respect for his competition.
Dovi had a slow start to the 2017 season, otherwise I have no idea how anyone could say that Dovi was never really competition. That's a very strange thing to say.
So you were being lapped and weren't competing directly with the other rider? You weren't competing for position on track. If you were in a battle with another rider and about to get lapped would you move off the line, give up time, forfeit your battle, just to "let the faster rider by?" It sounds like you were on a race track but you weren't really racing.
Dovi's fights with Marquez went on for several laps and they were never more than a few tenths apart. Their lap times were within a few tenths of each other. Rossi was lapping slower than Marquez, they did not spend any time near each other, and given the layout of that track it's possible that Rossi never heard Marquez before being hit. Further, at no point was Marquez "right beside" Rossi, he was behind Rossi until he hit Rossi.
Your posts often give me a headache.
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Singe
Well-known member
Dude,
Seriously, if you can't see the difference between the clips you showed where two riders are engaged as they circulate the track vs. a 'backmarker' who gets pegged by a clearly faster rider who wants the race line through a corner, I'm not sure there is any room for discussion left as there is no common ground to start from.
Rossi had the line entering the corner.
There was no front lock up that I could discern for MM.
I will not say that MM wanted to use Rossi as a berm to complete his turn, however MM pegged him as he was single mindedly focused on damage limitation due to earlier incidents in his race and wanted to get by NOW...as opposed to, you know, somewhere/time he could actually safely and easily get through.
These are the actions of the MM of old who I thought had actually matured a bit last season where he actually seemed to ride more like a racer.
If this is how this season will go, well, its likely gonna be another season of head shaking, sometimes at his talent, other times at his belligerence and disrespect for the sport and the other racers on the track.
In short, it seems, your anti-Rossi bias is showing.
The issue is that the contact with Rossi wasn’t the first incident, he’d been doing it all weekend. It wasn’t a little touch or Marquez standing guys up, it’s full on slamming into other riders when there was no room. Look at what happened to Pedrosa, that could’ve been a lot worse. What if his wrist ended up needing to be pinned or fused and ended his career? Still ok to be a bowling ball and taking guys out just because that’s you’re style? He should’ve been black flagged, end of story.
Also, you’re telling us with your example of a supermoto track day, that this guy who passed you is better at negotiating and getting by slower riders than MM is? Really?
If you were Rossi, knowing that each and every point is vital in the championship, would you not try and slow down a rider to prevent them from passing you and maybe even the rider in front of you? This is racecraft, it’s what you do. You’re playing chess out there doing math and figuring out how to lessen the damage your opponents are putting on you when you aren’t having a good weekend. This doesn’t mean that you should expect to be used as a berm and knocked off the track. Stood up into a corner, late aggressive pass, hell ya that’s acceptable and I enjoy that exciting racing. What MM was doing is full disregard for everyone’s safety.
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abkdt41
Well-known member
http://www.motogp.com/en/in+the+media/2018/04/11/lorenzo-heading-for-suzuki/255095
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
You don't understand racing, but as Wingboy suggested there seems to be a lot of race fans who don't understand what they're looking at.
I think the main thing most people don't realize is that a top shelf rider on a balls out lap is committed to his speed and line through the whole corner from the instant he hits his brakes at the end of the straight. "Committed" means there's no room for deviation through the corner other than straightening out and trying to keep it from going into the weeds.
They don't usually make this level of commitment when racing another rider for position except sometimes towards the end of the race, maybe just the last lap, because the risk of two riders committing to the same section of track at the same time is very high and it will often end up in a premature end to the race for one or both of them.
There's definitely a grey area between the point at which riders are expected to give room for another who's nearby, and the point at which they can commit to their own line and let the other rider figure out their problems for themselves. But Marquez wasn't anywhere near that grey area, he was so far back heading into the braking zone that the only possible consequence of his late dive into the apex was going to be shoving the other riders wide. So other riders didn't even have a chance to give him room even if they wanted to because by the time he was alongside they had already committed to their line waaaay back at the braking point. Marquez would have known this but disregarded it because... he's Marquez.
The comparisons to Vale's passes, and your pass, are a joke. Even if Rossi is more to blame for his incidents than whoever he was racing against at the time, they don't compare to what Marquez did here because he wasn't seriously fighting for a position, and he wasn't anywhere close enough for other riders to even consider leaving him room before he 'passed'.
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I was thinking the same thing. Dovi knew it was coming and showed great mental strength on the last corner (twice) to take advantage of it, knowing his opponent. But what if he hadn't? What if he just rode his normal line? Would Marquez have just gone about it as if he wasn't even there because he has to try it otherwise he wouldn't be able to sleep at night? I kind of feel like that's what he does - out of want/arrogance/lack of respect for other riders or whatever it may be.. So when Rossi says "I'm scared on track when I'm with Marquez", I get it - I think all the riders are, especially when Marquez is "pushing hard"... I only started watching MotoGP at the start of last season (before then it was the 500cc Doohan days) so I don't really know about the whole Rossi-Marquez history since 2015 etc.
The Cole's notes version of their quarrel:
- Inadvertent contact between the two riders at the Argentina GP resulted in Marquez crashing
- Ridiculous last lap last corner dive bomb attempt at the Assen GP saw Marquez hit Rossi, push Rossi into the gravel, Rossi rode through the gravel full throttle and back onto the track to win the race.
- Ridiculous on track shenanigans between the two at the Sepang GP saw Rossi get fed up with what he believed was Marquez trying to trip him up. Rossi got inside Marquez in one corner then intentionally pushed him wider and wider to the edge of the track. Some people will say Rossi kicked Marquez' brake lever, others will say Marquez drove into the side of Rossi.... but Marquez fell.
- War of words between the two.
- Marquez, Rossi, Ianone and Lorenzo had what appeared to be one of the most phenomenal 4-way battles for a race win ever with countless position changes among the group, then at the end of the race Marquez suddenly checks out and wins.
- Rossi and some of his fans speculated that Marquez was intentionally tripping up Rossi to help Lorenzo win the title.
- Further on track action at the season finale at Valencia could be viewed as evidence to that effect.
Through 2016 and 2017 their quarrel seemed to have died down. Marquez didn't make too many stupid decisions between then and now.
If you go back and watch some of Marquez' racing highlights from moto3, moto2 and motoGP before you started watching you can see a pattern in his behavior. In one of his most stupidest displays of decision making ability he crashed so hard he almost went blind.
Would there be a tag for retired lazy ex racers as well? I am all over that
My coles notes, Spanish Riders hate Italian riders and Italian Riders hate everyone.
My coles notes, Spanish Riders hate Italian riders and Italian Riders hate everyone.
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Todd929
Well-known member
MM has been doing this for years as stated by many in this thread. He and Pol Espargaro had some real hard battles the year MM won the Moto2 Championship. Unfortunately Pol got injured and didn't finish the season. MM winning the championship was not a foregone conclusion because Pol was really battling him and the points standings was very close. A great season to go back and watch for those of you with the MotoGP subscription.
Zarco is pretty rough out there as well. How he didn't get penalized for pushing Dani out of the way is very surprising. There may not have been any "contact" but Dani had to get out of the way and we all know how that ended.
MM passed Vinales on the last lap as well. I think it was the second last corner. MotoGP footage just caught the end of the pass and Vin looked to be way wide mid corner after MM passed him. Would love to know how that pass went. Has anyone seen or heard anything about that pass?
MM, in the post race interview, said that he did the race 100% right (or something like that). He felt his pass on A. Espargaro was a bit much but didn't see anything wrong with all of his other incidents. Driving back to his grid position at the start. He said that the officials weren't sure what he should do but you can clearly see them yelling "pit" and trying to steer him and his bike to pit lane. Nothing wrong with his pass on VR. He said his front tire washed out a bit on him and that's why he hit VR.
I'm not sure what's more dangerous: his actions on the track or the fact that he doesn't/can't see that he's doing anything wrong.
Zarco is pretty rough out there as well. How he didn't get penalized for pushing Dani out of the way is very surprising. There may not have been any "contact" but Dani had to get out of the way and we all know how that ended.
MM passed Vinales on the last lap as well. I think it was the second last corner. MotoGP footage just caught the end of the pass and Vin looked to be way wide mid corner after MM passed him. Would love to know how that pass went. Has anyone seen or heard anything about that pass?
MM, in the post race interview, said that he did the race 100% right (or something like that). He felt his pass on A. Espargaro was a bit much but didn't see anything wrong with all of his other incidents. Driving back to his grid position at the start. He said that the officials weren't sure what he should do but you can clearly see them yelling "pit" and trying to steer him and his bike to pit lane. Nothing wrong with his pass on VR. He said his front tire washed out a bit on him and that's why he hit VR.
I'm not sure what's more dangerous: his actions on the track or the fact that he doesn't/can't see that he's doing anything wrong.
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abkdt41
Well-known member
Phillip Island.
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