Long Term Care

While I appreciate the thread this is def a topic that will need to come up with my parents soon enough. Both edging on 70 and I’m not looking forward to the discussion.

Anytime the info is brought up it’s deflected. Eventually they’ll have to acknowledge the fact they’re getting older.
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When I was flying there was suggested approach when someone was thinking going up when conditions were not good. The person was asked if their best friend or dearest relative wanted to go up would they try to talk them out of it. If they said yes the obviousness of the situation became apparent.

If you asked your father for advice for a mythical friend that's about your father's age, finances etc and what would he recommend?

Work another five, ten or more years or invest in family time, full time?
 
My parents had me in their late 40's so here I am around the same age now with both of my parents gone.

My mother was a lifelong smoker and paid the price quickly at the end, but at least without a lot of suffering. It was agonizing to see her fade away in the period of 4 or 5 days, basically suffocating because her lungs just didn't work anymore, but at least we know she wasn't in any pain. If you're a smoker...seriously....stop. Your family may have to go through this and it was gutting.

At least there was no difficult decisions to be made with regards to LTC for her.

My father however was not very independent. My parents were oldschool Leave It To Beaver sorts - mom was the happy housemaker in the big house taking care of all the lady stuff. Dad went to work and made the money, and did well for himself. I lived a privileged childhood lets just say.

The problem was that when my mother passed away dad did not do well independently. Already suffering from health issues that effected his mobility, and without really any idea how to even cook for himself or do laundry, it was tough. Mom always did it, end stop. We arranged meals on wheels and we had CCAC come in to help with maintenance of the apartment they'd moved into when they sold the (now smaller, having downsized about 15 years before that) house about 5 years previous. What's left of the family is small...there was basically only 3 of us and we had busy lives of our own so we couldn't always be there as much as we all wanted.

Anyhow, the difficult decision needed to be made for dad rather suddenly as he started to fall at the apartment without any ability or desire (he was too dignified and proud for his own good) to call for help, we found out he spent a whole night on the floor once.

The talk was tough but he agreed it was time. We framed it as an opportunity to not have to worry about all the "stuff" of living alone anymore, all while adding a new social aspect that he really did like. He loved playing cards and just shooting the **** with others. I think he was actually looking forward to it in some way as his "life" had become basically sitting in the apartment alone watching TV and sleeping. Family tried to visit as much as possible, but he was still lonely and not doing well.

He went on a list with CCAC for "urgent placement" which jumps the queue of everyone else who was not in urgent need but had their name on the list. He ended up at Hillsdale in Oshawa, in what was (at the time) their newer building, only 4 or 5 years old. It was actually his first choice.

He was actually very happy when it was all said and done, and being a municipal run (vs for-profit) nursing home the level of care seemed really genuinely great. And being a newer building it was up to the newer codes - even a 2 person "shared" room (which he was in) only shared the bathroom - the living area was private.

I don't know the cost (my sister was POA and handled the financials to the end), but I do know that being a municipal home it was somewhat geared on income, and dad had arranged his finances in such a way that there wasn't a lot of "income". There was money...but not "income". Accordingly AFAIK he lived there pretty reasonably as a result, with some of the cost subsidized. Had he run out of money for whatever reason he'd still be there, probably in the same room, which honestly was pretty nice.

He sadly ended up having a stroke a few months after moving in and lost all his mobility and most of his ability to speak so the social aspect he wanted so bad went away as he withdrew and just sat a lot staring out his window, or sleeping. It was pretty sad. But he was well cared for - we never had any concern at all about that.

When he ended up in the hospital at the end and things weren't looking good we made the decision we knew dad would have wanted - to make him comfortable, and let him go. The life he was living was not the way such a proud strong man wanted to be living, we all knew.

Personally, much of that has shaped why I have a very "YOLO" mindset moving into my 50's. I saw both my parents have health issues in their 60's through 80's that prevented them from doing a lot of stuff. I have my share of health issues as well (bad genetics methinks) and don't want to go down that same road. So we save less now than we probably should should we live past our 80's ourselves, but we do a ton of cool stuff and have experiences as a trade off.

I'm hoping, like others have touched on, that the laws will change so that when my quality of life has been degraded to the level it was for my dad (basically trapped in a bed, unable to talk, walk, or even go to the bathroom on my own) that I can wish everyone adieu and kick off on my own terms. If dad had been able to make that same decision I know he would have as well, and we'd have supported him.
 
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My parents had me in their late 40's so here I am around the same age now with both of my parents gone.

My mother was a lifelong smoker and paid the price quickly at the end, but at least without a lot of suffering. It was agonizing to see her fade away in the period of 4 or 5 days, basically suffocating because her lungs just didn't work anymore, but at least we know she wasn't in any pain. If you're a smoker...seriously....stop. Your family may have to go through this and it was gutting.

At least there was no difficult decisions to be made with regards to LTC for her.

My father however was not very independent. My parents were oldschool Leave It To Beaver sorts - mom was the happy housemaker in the big house taking care of all the lady stuff. Dad went to work and made the money, and did well for himself. I lived a privileged childhood lets just say.

The problem was that when my mother passed away dad did not do well independently. Already suffering from health issues that effected his mobility, and without really any idea how to even cook for himself or do laundry, it was tough. Mom always did it, end stop. We arranged meals on wheels and we had CCAC come in to help with maintenance of the apartment they'd moved into when they sold the (now smaller, having downsized about 15 years before that) house about 5 years previous. What's left of the family is small...there was basically only 3 of us and we had busy lives of our own so we couldn't always be there as much as we all wanted.

Anyhow, the difficult decision needed to be made for dad rather suddenly as he started to fall at the apartment without any ability or desire (he was too dignified and proud for his own good) to call for help, we found out he spent a whole night on the floor once.

The talk was tough but he agreed it was time. We framed it as an opportunity to not have to worry about all the "stuff" of living alone anymore, all while adding a new social aspect that he really did like. He loved playing cards and just shooting the **** with others. I think he was actually looking forward to it in some way as his "life" had become basically sitting in the apartment alone watching TV and sleeping. Family tried to visit as much as possible, but he was still lonely and not doing well.

He went on a list with CCAC for "urgent placement" which jumps the queue of everyone else who was not in urgent need but had their name on the list. He ended up at Hillsdale in Oshawa, in what was (at the time) their newer building, only 4 or 5 years old. It was actually his first choice.

He was actually very happy when it was all said and done, and being a municipal run (vs for-profit) nursing home the level of care seemed really genuinely great. And being a newer building it was up to the newer codes - even a 2 person "shared" room (which he was in) only shared the bathroom - the living area was private.

I don't know the cost (my sister was POA and handled the financials to the end), but I do know that being a municipal home it was somewhat geared on income, and dad had arranged his finances in such a way that there wasn't a lot of "income". There was money...but not "income". Accordingly AFAIK he lived there pretty reasonably as a result, with some of the cost subsidized. Had he run out of money for whatever reason he'd still be there, probably in the same room, which honestly was pretty nice.

He sadly ended up having a stroke a few months after moving in and lost all his mobility and most of his ability to speak so the social aspect he wanted so bad went away as he withdrew and just sat a lot staring out his window, or sleeping. It was pretty sad. But he was well cared for - we never had any concern at all about that.

When he ended up in the hospital at the end and things weren't looking good we made the decision we knew dad would have wanted - to make him comfortable, and let him go. The life he was living was not the way such a proud strong man wanted to be living, we all knew.

Personally, much of that has shaped why I have a very "YOLO" mindset moving into my 50's. I saw both my parents have health issues in their 60's through 80's that prevented them from doing a lot of stuff. I have my share of health issues as well (bad genetics methinks) and don't want to go down that same road. So we save less now than we probably should should we live past our 80's ourselves, but we do a ton of cool stuff and have experiences as a trade off.

I'm hoping, like others have touched on, that the laws will change so that when my quality of life has been degraded to the level it was for my dad (basically trapped in a bed, unable to talk, walk, or even go to the bathroom on my own) that I can wish everyone adieu and kick off on my own terms. If dad had been able to make that same decision I know he would have as well, and we'd have supported him.
Thanks for sharing PP.
 
I truly do believe that retirement/LTC/assisted living will be the next big industry in Ontario. Lots of people coming up on that age, lots of money to spend per month to live there once they sell $1M++ homes, not enough rooms in these buildings as they stand. Lots of jobs for young people that can't be automated.

Back in university when my grandpa (in his 80's) started to get alzheimers, my parents/aunt/uncles were talking about when it would be time to get a nurse to help my grandma out with him or get him set up in some sort of LTC. A few weeks later on a Friday, he came in from working out in his shop, had a seizure, end up in hospital for the weekend, then had a heart attack early Monday morning in his sleep and died. I was studying for midterms and didn't go see him in the hospital, kind of regret that decision... Either way it was a quick way to go but just about the best way to go. Happy to not have to see him moved to a LTC where he couldn't be out in the shop tinkering with something everyday
 
I truly do believe that retirement/LTC/assisted living will be the next big industry in Ontario. Lots of people coming up on that age, lots of money to spend per month to live there once they sell $1M++ homes, not enough rooms in these buildings as they stand. Lots of jobs for young people that can't be automated.

Back in university when my grandpa (in his 80's) started to get alzheimers, my parents/aunt/uncles were talking about when it would be time to get a nurse to help my grandma out with him or get him set up in some sort of LTC. A few weeks later on a Friday, he came in from working out in his shop, had a seizure, end up in hospital for the weekend, then had a heart attack early Monday morning in his sleep and died. I was studying for midterms and didn't go see him in the hospital, kind of regret that decision... Either way it was a quick way to go but just about the best way to go. Happy to not have to see him moved to a LTC where he couldn't be out in the shop tinkering with something everyday

I have a problem with the wages. If you want responsible people you have to pay them enough to be responsible to themselves and their families. While nurses and doctors can do well the lower echelon of ECE, PSW, School bus drivers etc would almost be better off flipping burgers.

The reality is we have to pay people what they are worth. That means higher costs for LTC homes, day care and school budgets.

Part time workers get screwed by everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong but they pay employment insurance but if only laid off from one job can't collect. Throw in shift work and split shifts the job isn't a goldmine.

If the lower echelon gets better wages it means those further up the chain will have to adjust to paying more and having less disposable income. There will be a readjustment right to the top. If lawn care workers get paid more more home owners may start cutting their own lawns. Cleaners would be similar.

I recall discussing changes with a federal employee and she pointed out that a major change in things like CPP had to be laid out decades in advance to allow people to adjust. If LTC is the same does that mean the problems we now have will take decades to sort out?

If not, there will be big costs and who picks up the tab?

 
PSW wages are awful, but its better than burger flipping or a drive thru window. And you get certified in 6-8weeks?
And you'll NEVER get anybody paying nurses wage, because private care facilities are not built to look after old people. They are built to make money.
In Ontario you will not run out of customers , they almost always pay the bills , it is very lucrative. And you'll staff the place with the least expensive folks you can get.
 
PSW wages are awful, but its better than burger flipping or a drive thru window. And you get certified in 6-8weeks?
And you'll NEVER get anybody paying nurses wage, because private care facilities are not built to look after old people. They are built to make money.
In Ontario you will not run out of customers , they almost always pay the bills , it is very lucrative. And you'll staff the place with the least expensive folks you can get.
My theory is that by paying minimal wages we are forced to pay more taxes to cover subsidized housing and food banks. It costs more because oversights are required and the oversights come with overheads.

I'd rather pay an extra dollar for my burger combo than see the dollar go to taxes and into the general coffers for bridges to nowhere.

The solution is problematic in that Toronto housing prices need higher minimums than North Bay where you can buy a place at a third the price.

All kinds of fuzzy lines need to be drawn. Drawing fuzzy lines on maps screws local economies. Move a mile away and get a raise.

Joe moves a mile west to get a dollar an hour raise but drives a mile east to get a cheaper burger. The burger joint across the street from Joe goes belly up.
 
A corollary to this discussion .....
What happens at the end, when the person is gone?
The options are:
- burial, with all the fixings
- 'green' burial
- cremation with rights to scatter the ashes
- dissolving in alkali and disposal of remains

Depressing to talk about, but this should also be a part of the plan.
 
Cremation or whatever for me. Put me in a box somewhere where I don’t take up much space. Reality is after a generation or two nobody cares or visits anymore anyways as there’s no physical connection to the person anymore aside from genealogy at best. How many 100+ year old headstones in cemeteries do you see anyone visit anymore? Why would I want to be in a box taking up valuable space in a random cemetery forever for…what?

My parents have a “niche” in a mausoleum after both having been cremated. Total space used is about 2 feet square.

But even that is risky to some extent as it’s still a building that needs upkeep basically forever. If the money runs out or whatnot you potentially have this situation that your future relatives need to deal with - assuming there’s any left to care, and they have the money:

 
Cremation and sprinkle the ashes wherever convenient.

As a kid I thought it was neat to see someone shot out of a cannon but then I found out it wasn't a real canon and sometimes they missed the catch net. When I'm dead, who cares?
 
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yup

Death. At 5:42 pm on February 20, 2005, Thompson died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head at Owl Farm, his "fortified compound" in Woody Creek, Colorado.
 
Really touchy and difficult subject, especially when you look at the age distribution across Ontario and how this will impact the working force in a decade or two.

On a smaller scale, I've had a very difficult discussion with parents. I know how much they have, I know how much the house is worth, and they know how much their sons make. I told them to sell the house if needed, we understand what our parents have given up and a house isn't necessary, especially since our bloodline will likely end with my brother and I.

Cremation or whatever for me. Put me in a box somewhere where I don’t take up much space. Reality is after a generation or two nobody cares or visits anymore anyways as there’s no physical connection to the person anymore aside from genealogy at best. How many 100+ year old headstones in cemeteries do you see anyone visit anymore? Why would I want to be in a box taking up valuable space in a random cemetery forever for…what?

So much this. Something I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around are those who insist on taking up limited free land after they have left this planet. On that note, I want governments and corporations to earn as little (or nothing if possible) in the event of my death. Still need to figure out how because last time I theorycrafted at the lunch table, we found out burning a corpse in your backyard is not legal lol

PSW wages are awful, but its better than burger flipping or a drive thru window. And you get certified in 6-8weeks?
And you'll NEVER get anybody paying nurses wage, because private care facilities are not built to look after old people. They are built to make money.
In Ontario you will not run out of customers , they almost always pay the bills , it is very lucrative. And you'll staff the place with the least expensive folks you can get.
This one of the many examples why I developed a hate boner for those purely after profit lol

Wish people would be paid for doing a good job, not exploiting situations to the best of their ability.
 
So much this. Something I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around are those who insist on taking up limited free land after they have left this planet. On that note, I want governments and corporations to earn as little (or nothing if possible) in the event of my death. Still need to figure out how because last time I theorycrafted at the lunch table, we found out burning a corpse in your backyard is not legal lol
My grandmother wanted a cardboard box in the woods. Also not legal. Legal cardboard box from a funeral home costs a disgusting amount. What a bleeping racket that is but that's for another day.

It is interesting to see some of the land world wide that has been dedicated to cemeteries. There is a huge cemetery in Sydney along the cliffs (Waverley Cemetery). The dead people don't care about the view and lets be honest, over time there are fewer visitors to the old graves and the new ones are far from the edge.

Historically, many cemeteries have recycled graves over time. Buried more than xx years ago, nobody is coming to see you, up you come and into a bone pile to free up space for new bodies (and income).

My wife wants to be organ donated/cremated. I am on the fence on cremation but will probably go the same route. Cheap to the end. A few of my aunts donated their bodies to U of T for medical research/doctor training. A good way to do one last selfless act.
 
Didn't he off himself?
I was referring to the bit from "Song of the Sausage Creature". I'd rather be shot out of a cannon than squeezed out of a tube.
 
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