Left Turners | GTAMotorcycle.com

Left Turners

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Forum Sponsor
Ok we have seen many collisions, involving left turning vehicles. It seems most are quick to blame the other vehicle and giving a complete pass to the rider involved.

Looking at the photos, and seeing the video, (of the collision site), I have to wonder about the collision of last evening, (27 Oct 2019, thread in fallen riders sub forum), where a bike collided on Warden with an 18 wheeler. The speed limit on that area of Warden is 60Km/h. from the photo, it would appear the rider had at least one escape route, (around the front of the rig, It likely travelled a couple of feet forward after the collision).

Also begs the question as to why a rider, wouldn't have seen the "warning signs" that the rig was getting ready to turn, (normally rigs don't take corners at 60 km/h), so presumably the rig was slowing.

So besides, the "escape route" no idea why the rider wasn't aware of the impending danger. Didn't see a skid mark from the bike, (Although the photo angle isn't great), so did the rider not see the rig, or was the speed such that, he was unable to stop in time. I am NOT blaming the rider, just asking questions, hopefully, the rider, when he recovers, (although as of last night he was listed as serious, so may be awhile, before he can chime in, if he is on this forum), so that perhaps others can learn, from his experience.

Now NONE of this, absolves the rig operator, from their culpability, in the collision. Depends as well, as what charges are laid. If the charge is improper left turn, then upon conviction, it will be between him/her, their employer, and insurer, as to ongoing employment. If a more serious charge of distracted, or dangerous/careless driving is laid and a conviction registered, then that would signal the end of their career as a professional driver.
 
Agreed. The driver may be legally 100% at fault.

But, in many cases, it is realistically rarely a 1-sided event. And even if it was, it is often avoidable, as you can mitigate risks such that another driver's mistakes don't cost you.

Treat other drivers like weird moving obstacles, that are kind often predictable, even when not following the rules of the road. Get to know their common eff-ups, as well as how they react to other drivers effing up.

Short of being "targeted" by a driver in some crazy gang-related revenge situation, I plan to never come in contact with a car while on a bike.

GWS and keep your head and eyes up.
 
Virtually all left lane turns are the fault of the turner. There are things riders do that aggravate the situation -- excessive speed, blowing stop lights/signs, uncancelled signals.... but at the end of the day crossing a lane of oncoming traffic is a responsibility that all drivers are required to take very seriously.

The MTO penalties are too weak to be a deterrent. Insurers, not so much -- take a very dim view of because the almost always absorb 100% fault and costs, if you have an accident with a bodily injury claim I have seen rates go from $125/mo to $500+ per month if that's your only driving offence on record, up to $800/mo if you have 2 or more tickets already.
 
Boils down to the only person who is going to keep you safe on the road is yourself. The second you assume anything or leave the responsibility of your safety to someone else is when bad things happen. I’ll avoid commenting on the specific accident your talking about. Your analysis makes sense, but without a video/back story who knows. Could have been that 1/million freak situation where its truly out of your control.

That being said there is a lot of riders out there that brush off the risks and hold a romantic idea of what motorcycling is. It’s crazy how many people I see in the city on 100+HP bikes with both feet down at low speeds, running into the other lane because they can’t corner properly, locking up the rear brake because they aren’t confident enough to use the front etc. How many people actually go out and practice emergency braking, low speed maneuvers, aggressive swerving, etc.? It’s easy to watch crash videos and claim how the rider should have done XYZ to avoid ABC. When things are happening in real time there isn’t a chance to process. Your subconscious kicks in and executes. If your riding skills aren’t second nature that’s when you freeze up or grab a fist full of brake. Learning doesn’t end once you pass the MSF course – all that does is qualify you to ride in an empty parking lot at 20km/h.

Beyond that learn to be a master at car chess, think in 360 degrees, ride like your invisible/everyone is trying to kill you, etc. Best bet is to avoid putting yourself in those “oh ****” situations and keep riding skillset sharp to save you when it does happen.
 
I agree with everything said so far.

I travel a lot to Florida and Arizona, and a vast majority of intersections have advanced left turn signals followed by a red left turn signal. As I rider, I certainly appreciate the attempt to control the situation where most accidents happen.

This certainly doesn’t mitigate the left turn situations not happening in a controlled intersection, but cuts down on the number of uncontrolled left turn situations people find themselves in day on day out. It lowers the “law of averages”.

Our governments needs to take a close look at this.
 
Nobody will argue that the rider has the ultimate responsibility for keeping him/herself safe -- not being at fault in a serious collision isn't much consolation for a rider. I'm extremely defensive, I manage a daily commute that sometimes feels like I'm riding through a video game -- I constantly assess the road situation looking for challenges and figuring out responses in real time -- I have to or I'd be dead by now.

That said, I still think penalties are lax. If you injure another road user, whether they be vulnerable or not -- you should have a price to pay. As mentioned earlier your insurance co will get you, but that's not a great deterrent.
 
I was recently in the KW area and was amazed and pleased with the amount of roundabout on my route.

I was awesome to see how well the traffic flowed.

Yes, some people do not know how to navigate them but I am sure that statistically speaking, they are safer than intersections.
 
r3r3r3 said:
Boils down to the only person who is going to keep you safe on the road is yourself. The second you assume anything or leave the responsibility of your safety to someone else is when bad things happen. I’ll avoid commenting on the specific accident your talking about. Your analysis makes sense, but without a video/back story who knows. Could have been that 1/million freak situation where its truly out of your control.

That being said there is a lot of riders out there that brush off the risks and hold a romantic idea of what motorcycling is. It’s crazy how many people I see in the city on 100+HP bikes with both feet down at low speeds, running into the other lane because they can’t corner properly, locking up the rear brake because they aren’t confident enough to use the front etc. How many people actually go out and practice emergency braking, low speed maneuvers, aggressive swerving, etc.? It’s easy to watch crash videos and claim how the rider should have done XYZ to avoid ABC. When things are happening in real time there isn’t a chance to process. Your subconscious kicks in and executes. If your riding skills aren’t second nature that’s when you freeze up or grab a fist full of brake. Learning doesn’t end once you pass the MSF course – all that does is qualify you to ride in an empty parking lot at 20km/h.

Beyond that learn to be a master at car chess, think in 360 degrees, ride like your invisible/everyone is trying to kill you, etc. Best bet is to avoid putting yourself in those “oh ****” situations and keep riding skillset sharp to save you when it does happen.
Click to expand...

I was going to write a long rant that addresses the underlined section, and what causes these sort of errors by riders, but this interview with Nick Ienatsch sums it up better than I ever could:

Legend Ride Coach Nick Ienatsch - Myth Busting Radius & Miles Per Hour

Tldr: A lot of newer riders are given really bad advice
 
I just flat out don't trust that car, I'm usually on the brakes already to reduce the speed I will need to emergency brake or swerve at, had a few close calls and this saved me a lot. If I assumed they see me and continue at the same pace I'd already be screwed.
 
Many unknown factors here. How fast was the bike travelling in the 60 zone? Maybe no time to react, to evade or maybe target fixation or a combination of things.

While I agree that virtually all left turners are at 100% at fault there can be mitigating circumstances where the riders could be partially responsible for an accident. I'm a fairly defensive driver, and also looking out for riders, but almost clipped a sport bike rider who came through an intersection doing well over 100 in a 60. There was a long line of cars coming in the opposite direction waiting to turn left and the rider was shielded from my view. Practically speaking, was I supposed to anticipate someone would be approaching a suburban intersection at 110 - 120 and still accelerating while in a 60 kph zone? I'd probably still be charged, but is consolation to the severely injured or dead rider?
 
ReSTored said:
Many unknown factors here. How fast was the bike travelling in the 60 zone? Maybe no time to react, to evade or maybe target fixation or a combination of things.

While I agree that virtually all left turners are at 100% at fault there can be mitigating circumstances where the riders could be partially responsible for an accident. I'm a fairly defensive driver, and also looking out for riders, but almost clipped a sport bike rider who came through an intersection doing well over 100 in a 60. There was a long line of cars coming in the opposite direction waiting to turn left and the rider was shielded from my view. Practically speaking, was I supposed to anticipate someone would be approaching a suburban intersection at 110 - 120 and still accelerating while in a 60 kph zone? I'd probably still be charged, but is consolation to the severely injured or dead rider?
Click to expand...
The damage to the bike in question appeared minimal. It would be really interesting to see the investigation report. IMO either the rider was hard on the brakes right to the point of impact (but didn't appear to lock anything up) or wasn't going very quickly to start with. Zoning out for a few seconds is all it takes to become a bug squished on the side of a truck.

It's a crappy situation if you can't stop in time. Either you go right through the trucks path and hope the gap is still there or you go left and hope there is no oncoming traffic as hitting a moving vehicle head on is probably even worse for you than a slow moving truck.
 
Last edited:
I would be vrey interesting to see any of the police reports to get a better idea of the situation. When they review the scene they can determine the speeds involved, as told to me by one of our officers. Until then just be more cautious of left or right turners they are everywhere trying to get infront of you, either because they can't determine a bike speed and distance (smaller object) or just being selfish.
 
A hypothetical situation exaggerated for an example. In a 60 KPH zone a sport bike with a small frontal area is doing 200 KPH. A turning driver looks an appropriate distance down the road for a 60 KPH zone, misses seeing the bike and a collision occurs. A curve in the road or a change in elevation makes it worse. Who is at fault?

Additional factors are rider reaction time which would be a fixed time but at three + times the speed there is three + times the safety zone eaten up and far more barking distance needed. Reaction time could be greater if the rider is mentally focused on his track or shift points. When suddenly confronted by a turning semi the panic sets in. RIP. This is why excessive speed is for the track.

Rejoining the 401 from the shoulder is different from pulling away from the curb in a school zone.
 
Last edited:
Let me just say; after my own accident while at the collision centre, i presented my notes from the incident with a diagram to the officer on site. He glanced at the picture, read the first sentence, looked at me and said "Let me guess, left turner?" I said yep. He rolled his eyes, sighed and signed it.

:oops:
 
nobbie48 said:
A hypothetical situation exaggerated for an example. In a 60 KPH zone a sport bike with a small frontal area is doing 200 KPH. A turning driver looks an appropriate distance down the road for a 60 KPH zone, misses seeing the bike and a collision occurs. A curve in the road or a change in elevation makes it worse. Who is at fault?

Additional factors are rider reaction time which would be a fixed time but at three + times the speed there is three + times the safety zone eaten up and far more barking distance needed. Reaction time could be greater if the rider is mentally focused on his track or shift points. When suddenly confronted by a turning semi the panic sets in. RIP. This is why excessive speed is for the track.

Rejoining the 401 from the shoulder is different from pulling away from the curb in a school zone.
Click to expand...
You're really asking 2 questions, because there's logic and there's the law.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom