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Left Turners

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I was going to write a long rant that addresses the underlined section, and what causes these sort of errors by riders, but this interview with Nick Ienatsch sums it up better than I ever could:

Legend Ride Coach Nick Ienatsch - Myth Busting Radius & Miles Per Hour

Tldr: A lot of newer riders are given really bad advice
Here's a more detailed explanation: Accelerating in a curve? Well ...

I've been in two left turn collisions. In both instances the left turners managed to T-bone me, one on the left, and one on the right. I was also in a car in both cases, so there was no easy way for them to say that they didn't see me. Both ran stop signs and expected me to yield for them. So, you need to expect that some people will simply pull out on you whether you have the right-of-way or not.
 
A hypothetical situation exaggerated for an example. In a 60 KPH zone a sport bike with a small frontal area is doing 200 KPH. A turning driver looks an appropriate distance down the road for a 60 KPH zone, misses seeing the bike and a collision occurs. A curve in the road or a change in elevation makes it worse. Who is at fault?

Additional factors are rider reaction time which would be a fixed time but at three + times the speed there is three + times the safety zone eaten up and far more barking distance needed. Reaction time could be greater if the rider is mentally focused on his track or shift points. When suddenly confronted by a turning semi the panic sets in. RIP. This is why excessive speed is for the track.

Rejoining the 401 from the shoulder is different from pulling away from the curb in a school zone.
The typical stopping distance at 60 kph is 32 metres, and at 200 kph it jumps to 272 metres.
70 is 42
80 is 53
90 is 64
100 is 77
110 is 92,
120 is 107, so you can see that it doesn't go up linearly. Double the speed, isn't double the braking distance.

Since vehicles are only a few metres wide, you can see how going only a tiny bit faster can mean the difference between being able to stop safely and crashing into another vehicle.
 
Nothing throws caution your way until you have been the recipient of a left-turner.

In my teens on my way to my job after school on my Yamaha Enduro bike a guy in an Impala made the turn on me them stopped in my path when he seen me coming at him. I was able to lean to the right just enough to clip his front right bumper. If he hadn't stopped, it would have been a full-on side collision .

As it turned out I got catapulted to the boulevard area resulting in a broken collar bone and because my arm went behind my back while in flight, I landed with my arm fixated into my lower back so I damaged a few discs.

Anyway I healed well but for the first few years I would panic if I noticed a car with the left turn signal waiting to turn in front of me. Now, some 50 years later I still go thru intersections with intrepidation while trying to focus on the eyes of the car driver, throttle off and my right hand on the brake lever.
 
I would be vrey interesting to see any of the police reports to get a better idea of the situation. When they review the scene they can determine the speeds involved, as told to me by one of our officers. Until then just be more cautious of left or right turners they are everywhere trying to get infront of you, either because they can't determine a bike speed and distance (smaller object) or just being selfish.
I can see where speed can make a difference, I don't buy that as a defense unless speed somehow makes an oncoming rider/driver invisible. A responsible driver doesn't make a left across lanes until such time as they can safely do so.

If you can't judge the closing speed of an oncoming vehicle, how are you certain you can safely make a turn?
 
I can see where speed can make a difference, I don't buy that as a defense unless speed somehow makes an oncoming rider/driver invisible. A responsible driver doesn't make a left across lanes until such time as they can safely do so.

If you can't judge the closing speed of an oncoming vehicle, how are you certain you can safely make a turn?
Well the truck driver was safe :/ He was uninjured and looking at a $90 ticket. Too bad for the guy he might have killed. (Said with some sarcasm, but sadly it's the truth from the truck drivers perspective)

Some people are incapable of making decisions for the good of society and that is where the judicial system should step in to let people know how unacceptable their behaviour was.

If you went back to the beginning of G1 for a left turn that resulted in a crash, do you think driving would change? I know mine would. Even though I believe I drive safely and conscientiously, I would probably not make any left turns at uncontrolled intersections if there was any traffic. The risk is too great for me.
 
The typical stopping distance at 60 kph is 32 metres, and at 200 kph it jumps to 272 metres.
70 is 42
80 is 53
90 is 64
100 is 77
110 is 92,
120 is 107, so you can see that it doesn't go up linearly. Double the speed, isn't double the braking distance.

Since vehicles are only a few metres wide, you can see how going only a tiny bit faster can mean the difference between being able to stop safely and crashing into another vehicle.
This table doesn't show typical stopping distances, those are beginner numbers you would expect at an M1 learner course, an experienced rider should stop in 1/2 those distances.

My point isn't to challenge your numbers, the take away here is practice, practice, practice then go take an advanced rider training course. Once proficient, you should be able to stop in about 1/2 those distances. It takes time and experience to shave reaction time - that could take years. It only takes practice and training to cut the actual stop time once you're on the brakes -- novices can close that gap in their first season.

Sadly many riders go years without worrying about their braking skills -- sadly many figure out their limitations in a Come to Jesus moment. Imagine how many riders would have avoided crashes if they were able to brake in 1/2 the distance?

Practice, practice, practice and get trained.
 
The typical stopping distance at 60 kph is 32 metres, and at 200 kph it jumps to 272 metres.
70 is 42
80 is 53
90 is 64
100 is 77
110 is 92,
120 is 107, so you can see that it doesn't go up linearly. Double the speed, isn't double the braking distance.

Since vehicles are only a few metres wide, you can see how going only a tiny bit faster can mean the difference between being able to stop safely and crashing into another vehicle.
This table doesn't show typical stopping distances, those are beginner numbers you would expect at an M1 learner course, an experienced rider should stop in 1/2 those distances.

My point isn't to challenge your numbers, the take away here is practice, practice, practice then go take an advanced rider training course. Once proficient, you should be able to stop in about 1/2 those distances. It takes time and experience to shave reaction time - that could take years. It only takes practice and training to cut the actual stop time once you're on the brakes -- novices can close that gap in their first season.

Sadly many riders go years without worrying about their braking skills -- sadly many figure out their limitations in a Come to Jesus moment. Imagine how many riders would have avoided crashes if they were able to brake in 1/2 the distance?

Practice, practice, practice and get trained.


Where are those numbers from? I assume that includes reaction time as well or is was it a brake at the line test? If they include reaction times, that could explain some of the strangeness in the numbers.
 
Where are those numbers from? I assume that includes reaction time as well or is was it a brake at the line test? If they include reaction times, that could explain some of the strangeness in the numbers.
I think those numbers are from the UK's Motorcycle Learner's website -- they are often quoted.

Motorbike Stopping Distances with Chart | Braking |

The same numbers are used in most online calculators.
 
I think those numbers are from the UK's Motorcycle Learner's website -- they are often quoted.

Motorbike Stopping Distances with Chart | Braking |

The same numbers are used in most online calculators.
Thanks. Haha, that page has some real gems. If you learned something from below, please stay off the road.

"Signalling when you brake
Don’t try to give an arm signal when you brake in an emergency

You’ll need both hands on the handlebars
Your stop lamp will warn traffic behind you"
 
They're actually from the U.K. automobile section. The idea was to show that stopping distance isn't linear, so it doesn't really matter which tables you use. Someone had said something above above doubling the speed which doubles the stopping distance, which isn't correct. As far as halfing the values, I'd like to see that at 200 kph, especially if you don't regularly cover the brake levers.

My bias is because, although I've had numerous left-turners flash out in front of me over the years, I've never managed to hit one, whether I was driving a cage or a bike. I've been in two accidents with them, but both were when they hit me, not the other way around. Practice, practice, practice, but then you have to be able to apply it in the real world, in imperfect situations, with a fraction of a second's notice. A man's got to know his limitations. To be on top of your game, you need to realize that there is no fixed requirement for judging closing distance on the motor vehicle test. Therefore, if you are closing at twice the speed limit, you expect that the people making left turns will misjudge your speed, and adjust your speed accordingly. If you're not doing that, then you're dangerous and have no business being on the road, whether you believe it's someone else's fault or not. You've broken one of the two most basic commandments of driving: "Don't hit anything", while they've broken the other: "Don't place yourself in a position to be hit". If you really think that people shouldn't be making left turns into moving traffic, then I have a field trip for you. Go down to South Kingway, turn onto one of the side streets on the east side, and then try and make a left turn, i.e. South, onto South Kingsway during rush hour.

If you want a more rigorous stopping distance calculator, try here: Stopping distance calculator
 
If you really think that people shouldn't be making left turns into moving traffic, then I have a field trip for you. Go down to South Kingway, turn onto one of the side streets on the east side, and then try and make a left turn, i.e. South, onto South Kingsway during rush hour.
I wasn't questioning the validity of your data, just looking for more information. Theoretically, doubling speed quadruples stopping distance, but that is only looking at the time the brakes are actually on. Including reaction time makes the distance vs speed have a much more complicated relationship.

In most cases, I think we would be much better off if left turns across two (or more) lanes of traffic at uncontrolled intersections were straight up banned. In my experience, those are the most dangerous scenarios as it is hard to clearly see and judge speeds of vehicles in multiple lanes. If that means people need to turn right out of their street and take the long way around, I'm not worried. If it is plugged up enough that the left was hard, they are probably blocking oncoming traffic while trying to wedge in already. Also, the line of cars behind them waiting for minutes for their chance at a dangerous left could all be driving an alternate route if they made the right instead of sitting idling.
 
They're actually from the U.K. automobile section. The idea was to show that stopping distance isn't linear, so it doesn't really matter which tables you use. Someone had said something above above doubling the speed which doubles the stopping distance, which isn't correct. As far as halfing the values, I'd like to see that at 200 kph, especially if you don't regularly cover the brake levers.

My bias is because, although I've had numerous left-turners flash out in front of me over the years, I've never managed to hit one, whether I was driving a cage or a bike. I've been in two accidents with them, but both were when they hit me, not the other way around. Practice, practice, practice, but then you have to be able to apply it in the real world, in imperfect situations, with a fraction of a second's notice. A man's got to know his limitations. To be on top of your game, you need to realize that there is no fixed requirement for judging closing distance on the motor vehicle test. Therefore, if you are closing at twice the speed limit, you expect that the people making left turns will misjudge your speed, and adjust your speed accordingly. If you're not doing that, then you're dangerous and have no business being on the road, whether you believe it's someone else's fault or not. You've broken one of the two most basic commandments of driving: "Don't hit anything", while they've broken the other: "Don't place yourself in a position to be hit". If you really think that people shouldn't be making left turns into moving traffic, then I have a field trip for you. Go down to South Kingway, turn onto one of the side streets on the east side, and then try and make a left turn, i.e. South, onto South Kingsway during rush hour.

If you want a more rigorous stopping distance calculator, try here: Stopping distance calculator
I think we are on the same page. If you are driving at stupid speeds OR you are oblivious to potential hazards, we have a forum waiting for you.

If you're a responsible rider, you will minimize the risks associated with speed and carelessness. Reaction time is the time it takes for your brain to tell your hand & foot to brake. Stopping time is how long it takes to complete your stop one you engage brakes.

Beginners will not be able to significantly shorten the Reaction time, experience teaches situations and shortens reaction time. Stopping time is easy to minimize in a car, smash the brakes to the floor and steer -- not much skill required. On a bike there's more to it than that, beginners brake at half a bike's potential (meaning they take twice as long to stop) so there is a lot of safety to be gained by learning proper emergency (threshold) braking. Beginners can shorten stopping time by almost half with a weekend course and a little practice.

I know it's saved my skin more than once. Ask anyone who has taken advanced training on braking, I'm sure they will agree.
 
They need to replace intersections with round abouts!
Not so fast I had a guy on a bike pull out in front of me as he merrily followed his buddies into the round about. There was a lull between them and he wasn't even looking when he cut out in front of me.
 
I didn't see anything in the prior posts about trying to be visible. You might think (as lots must) that flat black helmets and black gear is cool but if the driver doesn't see you he might be legally in the wrong but whats it matter if your dead.
After pinning a construction vest to my jacket my buddy commented that he couldn't wear the "short bus vest". I could care less especially now that everyone seems to drive with their head in their phone.
 
Not so fast I had a guy on a bike pull out in front of me as he merrily followed his buddies into the round about. There was a lull between them and he wasn't even looking when he cut out in front of me.
i didn't say the public doesn't need to be educated.
 
I didn't see anything in the prior posts about trying to be visible. You might think (as lots must) that flat black helmets and black gear is cool but if the driver doesn't see you he might be legally in the wrong but whats it matter if your dead.
After pinning a construction vest to my jacket my buddy commented that he couldn't wear the "short bus vest". I could care less especially now that everyone seems to drive with their head in their phone.
I agree the stealthy pirate suit isn't providing the rider any advantage.

I have to admit, I have trouble with construction vests and loud pipe arguments -- not going to find those on me. I have high tech reflectors on all my bikes, I ride with 2 color headlamps, and I always ride in light colors, partly to increase visibility, partly to stay cool (as in temperature cool).
 
I agree the stealthy pirate suit isn't providing the rider any advantage.

I have to admit, I have trouble with construction vests and loud pipe arguments -- not going to find those on me. I have high tech reflectors on all my bikes, I ride with 2 color headlamps, and I always ride in light colors, partly to increase visibility, partly to stay cool (as in temperature cool).
I wouldn't lump construction vests and loud pipes. One is quite effective in many situations and other than being dumb looking has little downside, the other is very very occasionally helpful while being constantly annoying to anyone within a mile of you.
 
I wouldn't lump construction vests and loud pipes. One is quite effective in many situations and other than being dumb looking has little downside, the other is very very occasionally helpful while being constantly annoying to anyone within a mile of you.
I hear you. The loud pipe and high vis arguments are fun, but we've already beaten those horses to death. You can never have enough safety and if those things make a rider feel safer than go for them.

I'm comfortable without them, I'm also comfortable with those who want them. Except for the guy 4 doors down who clears the pipes of his Vtwin every time he rolls around the corner in front of my house!
 
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