Law Enforcement - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.....

[nobbie48]

cache:https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/alberta-man-fined-for-texting-in-tim-hortons-drive-thru-could-it-happen-in-ontario/article27579298/ - Google Search

"
"They can only be charged if they are on a highway, which includes the sidewalk and driveway into the establishment," says Const. Clint Stibbe, with Toronto police traffic services. "The drive-thru, if on private property, is not included because the highway ends at the edge of the sidewalk closest to the establishment."

That's because Ontario's Highway Traffic Act (HTA) doesn't apply on private property, like drive-thrus or shopping centre parking lots."

I will occasionally pull over and curb park to read or send a text from a legal parking spot. Usually I turn the engine off with the car in park.

Guilty or not? This isn’t the care and control issue of an impaired driver.

If guilty, how many steps away from the vehicle is required.

Guilty in a Timmies drive through??? I’m not taking all the donuts. There are some left for the boys in blue.

 

[Evoex]

I will occasionally pull over and curb park to read or send a text from a legal parking spot. Usually I turn the engine off with the car in park.

Guilty or not? This isn’t the care and control issue of an impaired driver.

If guilty, how many steps away from the vehicle is required.

Guilty in a Timmies drive through??? I’m not taking all the donuts. There are some left for the boys in blue.

My basic understanding is if the vehicle is on, on a public roadway, it applies.

 

[GreyGhost]

I will occasionally pull over and curb park to read or send a text from a legal parking spot. Usually I turn the engine off with the car in park.

Guilty or not? This isn’t the care and control issue of an impaired driver.

If guilty, how many steps away from the vehicle is required.

Guilty in a Timmies drive through??? I’m not taking all the donuts. There are some left for the boys in blue.

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway " so you should be safe in park as you aren't driving. Semantics though and cops hand out tickets at red lights. To improve your odds, moving off the road would also help as then you aren't driving and not on a highway.

 

[raginduck]

This explains the situation a little more, from the officer's perspective.

Is it illegal to text in a Tim Hortons drive-thru?

'At Timmies. Do u want a double double?'

www.theglobeandmail.com

Different incident.. in different province.

 

[ToSlow]

Private property, I would fight that all the way

 

[raginduck]

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway " so you should be safe in park as you aren't driving. Semantics though and cops hand out tickets at red lights. To improve your odds, moving off the road would also help as then you aren't driving and not on a highway.

Agreed... I would be weary of just pulling off to the side of the road to use my phone, etc..
I'm not sure where the lines of "driving" actually are.. or if that precedent has been set by a court yet.. similar to how you can be charged for impaired just for being in the car, not running, with the keys in your possession type of thing.

 

[GreyGhost]

Private property, I would fight that all the way

Rules are different in the rest of Canada. Shpuld be an easy win in Ontario but technically against the law in other provinces as hta applies to private property. It's a stupid ticket that shpuld never have been written but it sounds like a valid ticket.

 

[raginduck]

Cop being a dick here IMHO
'Very expensive lunch': Sask. driver handed a cell phone ticket for using points app in McDonald's drive-thru

""RCMP can confirm that on May 13, 2024 the individual was observed driving a vehicle on a public roadway while using a cellphone. A Combined Traffic Services Saskatchewan RCMP officer initiated a traffic stop with the individual. The individual then pulled in the McDonald’s parking lot, where the traffic violation was issued," the statement said."

A dick.. may be.. but if it happened as reported.. then in the right legally... in any province.

 

[Dirty Frank]

That's because Ontario's Highway Traffic Act (HTA) doesn't apply on private property, like drive-thrus or shopping centre parking lots."

I'm confused can you be charged with stunt driving on private property?
If memory serves that is the case.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm confused can you be charged with stunt driving on private property?
If memory serves that is the case.

The latest revision of 172 allowed that charge on private property (and is a gross overreach imo as a kid on a dirtbike doing a wheelie in a farmers field should not get an hta charge). The rest of the HTA doesn't apply to private property (with some extension to publicly accessible private property).

 

[raginduck]

I'm confused can you be charged with stunt driving on private property?
If memory serves that is the case.

It hasn't been tested yet..
The government can write any laws it wants.. but the courts get the final say.
The courts have already ruled that the HTA does not apply to private property.
You could be charged with it.. but it will not hold up in court.

 

[DownUnder]

The latest revision of 172 allowed that charge on private property (and is a gross overreach imo as a kid on a dirtbike doing a wheelie in a farmers field should not get an hta charge). The rest of the HTA doesn't apply to private property (with some extension to publicly accessible private property).

Waiting for an overzealous OPP cruiser to park at the end of Mosport straightaway and hand tickets out in the pits while towing everyone's cars and bikes away

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Different incident.. in different province.

I guess it's more common than I thought. Discussion about Ontario is valid.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

It hasn't been tested yet..
The government can write any laws it wants.. but the courts get the final say.
The courts have already ruled that the HTA does not apply to private property.
You could be charged with it.. but it will not hold up in court.

At that point you've already suffered much of the consequences, with no recourse for recovery.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

There was a guy charged in Hamilton with 172 for doing donuts in a parking lot (in a Mustang, of course).

 

[nobbie48]

This explains the situation a little more, from the officer's perspective.

Is it illegal to text in a Tim Hortons drive-thru?

'At Timmies. Do u want a double double?'

www.theglobeandmail.com

Reading the article this came up.

"If I see you commit an offence and then you drive for ten miles, I can still charge you, as long as I don't lose sight of you," Stibbe says.

Didn't a member here get charged years ago with dangerous after police saw a guy on one of them darn racin' bikes doin' bad stuff but lost the villain in traffic. They say they caught up with him a few blocks away and our member got charged with all the ensuing expenses.

 

[GreyGhost]

Reading the article this came up.

"If I see you commit an offence and then you drive for ten miles, I can still charge you, as long as I don't lose sight of you," Stibbe says.

Didn't a member here get charged years ago with dangerous after police saw a guy on one of them darn racin' bikes doin' bad stuff but lost the villain in traffic. They say they caught up with him a few blocks away and our member got charged with all the ensuing expenses.

Many times police have been in court explaining how they saw a vehicle go past them at night at 200+ km/h and noted the license plate before chasing them so even though they lost sight they knew for sure it was the same vehicle as it was the same plate. Obviously a complete fabrication and they recorded the plate of the vehicle they stopped. Afaik, courts have never hammered them for that.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Reading the article this came up.

"If I see you commit an offence and then you drive for ten miles, I can still charge you, as long as I don't lose sight of you," Stibbe says.

Didn't a member here get charged years ago with dangerous after police saw a guy on one of them darn racin' bikes doin' bad stuff but lost the villain in traffic. They say they caught up with him a few blocks away and our member got charged with all the ensuing expenses.

It almost happened to me and some of my friends, when we were coming back from a long ride. We were cutting across the top of the city and got pulled over, in almost "felony stop" style. Turns out "these aren't the bikes you're looking for." Another group had been reported ripping through a couple of small towns at triple the limit and they thought it was us because, "There was a red bike in the group."

 

[GreyGhost]

It almost happened to me and some of my friends, when we were coming back from a long ride. We were cutting across the top of the city and got pulled over, in almost "felony stop" style. Turns out "these aren't the bikes you're looking for." Another group had been reported ripping through a couple of small towns at triple the limit and they thought it was us because, "There was a red bike in the group."

I don't mind looking out for safety and a document check. I despise when they proceed to charges based on almost nothing and then lie their ***** off with impunity to try to get the charges to stick.

 

[nobbie48]

Agreed... I would be weary of just pulling off to the side of the road to use my phone, etc..
I'm not sure where the lines of "driving" actually are.. or if that precedent has been set by a court yet.. similar to how you can be charged for impaired just for being in the car, not running, with the keys in your possession type of thing.

With the impaired charge, having the keys in your possession gives you care and control. Because you are impaired your judgement on whether to use or not use the keys is suspect.

Park and text is weasel territory. How is parked with only your foot on the brake preventing motion different than stopped at a red light or stopped behind a traffic jam? If you put the car into park it indicates a deliberate action to stop driving. Turning the engine off is a bonus indicator. The parking spot should be legal, not the passing lane of the 401, in front of someone's driveway, posted no parking zone, fire hydrant etc.