Justin Time

[STARSHIP]

Our Debt to GDP was the lowest in the G7 prior to the pandemic and now it is the highest in the G7.

Everyone has spent but Canada has spent significantly more than others.

With this we lost our AAA credit rating.

They initially did the right thing in getting CERB etc going but then his daily pandering from his doorstep to every possible cause to maximize political support has put us in this position.

Students already have a program that pays them $1250 per month and half of summer is gone, so this program was way too late

It was designed to pass $$ to WE and to make teachers happy with $12k for recruitment of their students.

WE is a cult.

 

[Mad Mike]

$350billion is a ton of cash! That's a $10,000 for each person standing on Canadian soil.

I got nothing... how about you?

 

[backmarkerducati]

As for the deficit JT is running in 2020. So are we saying the Conservatives under Scheer would have just let people starve and not implemented CERB etc.? Because I did not hear Scheer crying too loud about it at the time? Of course Monday morning QB.... It is and was uncharted territory.

Crying about the deficit in 2020 in the next election is a dangerous thing for Conservative supporters as something like 8M voters received some sort of bailout, maybe more. That could easily be turned around as the Liberals have your backs and the Conservatives do not.

I actually think Scheer gets it as I do not hear very loud cries about deficit from him, even now. Some mumbling maybe, loud complaining about WE etc.

But telling 8M voters that the deficit is their fault and/or they should not have received a bailout, bold move.

 

[crankcall]

Thats a well thought out answer from an angle I had not considered. Thanks for the perspective

 

[GreyGhost]

As for the deficit JT is running in 2020. So are we saying the Conservatives under Scheer would have just let people starve and not implemented CERB etc.? Because I did not hear Scheer crying too loud about it at the time? Of course Monday morning QB.... It is and was uncharted territory.

Crying about the deficit in 2020 in the next election is a dangerous thing for Conservative supporters as something like 8M voters received some sort of bailout, maybe more. That could easily be turned around as the Liberals have your backs and the Conservatives do not.

I actually think Scheer gets it as I do not hear very loud cries about deficit from him, even now. Some mumbling maybe, loud complaining about WE etc.

But telling 8M voters that the deficit is their fault and/or they should not have received a bailout, bold move.

I have no problem with some of the deficit. Prior to an election I would like an accounting of how much went to each program (and ideally an administration cost for each program). I don't expect perfection as at the beginning they needed to act quickly but I think some of the programs should have gotten a serious rewrite after they were implemented for a few months (eg. CERB is still being pillaged by unemployed drug addicts who will never have a means of repaying and are going on huge benders as they haven't had access to this much money for a long time. You are applying through the CRA, adding an automated check that you were employed last year (one of the conditions for CERB) is trivially easy and still not done).

Based on JT's past and current behaviour, I expect there will be billions of straight waste/paying off his friends within the overall package. That is the part I am concerned about. I am less concerned about the overall price as a large percentage of the expenses were IMO helpful to the country. JT has proven he has bad decision making ability so I expect him to just pour money into stupid causes because "what's a few more billion". I think the opposite way, we necessarily need to spend vastly more than our income so each expenditure should be scrutinized and the most important ones receive funding (and if any agency needs 20% administration to distribute a cheque, they are removed from bidding on gov't contracts for a decade to give them time to make a lean and efficient organization).

 

[Baggsy]

Sometimes I think that the conservative party must be accidentally hiring liberal party strategists to do their campaign work.

Things are put out that kind of make sense to conservatives, but spell death for liberal and NDP voters.

Edit: The basic thing is, that if he's borrowing $40,000 for every working man, woman & child, and he's only handing most people $10,000 then I thing they'll see what's wrong with the picture.

 

[Mad Mike]

CERB abuse seems to be rampant. As of 1 month ago, a whopping 360,000 repayments were made to CERB by those spooked about the penalties of fraud. CRA receives more than 600 tips a week related to CERB fraud, I'm guessing both those numbers are the tip of the iceberg.

Hopefully there is a rigorous followup scheme to repay, but I expect the bleeding hearts will nix that and there will be no concerted effort to recover fraud.

 

[GreyGhost]

CERB abuse seems to be rampant. As of 1 month ago, a whopping 360,000 repayments were made to CERB by those spooked about the penalties of fraud. CRA receives more than 600 tips a week related to CERB fraud, I'm guessing both those numbers are the tip of the iceberg.

Hopefully there is a rigorous followup scheme to repay, but I expect the bleeding hearts will nix that and there will be no concerted effort to recover fraud.

That would cost JT many votes if he did that. Lots of people will be happy that the gov't handed them 10K with no strings attached. I expect JT to say he is going to do something to keep cons at bay but then actually do very little to keep the goodwill that he bought with our money. Another good reason to pull the election up. "We have been trying but this is a complicated situation and it takes time to resolve. We haven't had sufficient time yet."

 

[backmarkerducati]

It really shows the concept of a guaranteed min income might not be a bat **** crazy as many thought. Everything I have read is it would have been WAY cheaper than CERB etc. if we had it in place. Of course it would be argued that it is more expensive in other years...

In the end, just give the money to every adult and rake it back on taxes for those that do not need it. No Welfare, no EI, no CPP, no OAS, reduced healthcare costs, reduced police budgets, etc. It may or may not make sense but it is worth another legit/real look.

 

[Wingboy]

It really shows the concept of a guaranteed min income might not be a bat **** crazy as many thought. Everything I have read is it would have been WAY cheaper than CERB etc. if we had it in place. Of course it would be argued that it is more expensive in other years...

In the end, just give the money to every adult and rake it back on taxes for those that do not need it. No Welfare, no EI, no CPP, no OAS, reduced healthcare costs, reduced police budgets, etc. It may or may not make sense but it is worth another legit/real look.

And much less family breakup resulting in fatherless kids that end up in gangs. Lots of benefits.

 

[GreyGhost]

It really shows the concept of a guaranteed min income might not be a bat **** crazy as many thought. Everything I have read is it would have been WAY cheaper than CERB etc. if we had it in place. Of course it would be argued that it is more expensive in other years...

In the end, just give the money to every adult and rake it back on taxes for those that do not need it. No Welfare, no EI, no CPP, no OAS, reduced healthcare costs, reduced police budgets, etc. It may or may not make sense but it is worth another legit/real look.

Setting the number for GI is very complicated. At $2000/mo, CERB pays enough that many people would choose that over work and the program would be a disaster (high operating costs, impaired GDP). At ~$800 (IIRC ODSP is around there), it is very hard to live. I like a program that a philanthropist setup for his spawn. You work, the trust adds money to your income. No work at all, no money. Everybody can do something constructive. Pick up garbage, call and talk to seniors in nursing homes, etc for those that are unable to do conventional employment.

 

[Mad Mike]

It really shows the concept of a guaranteed min income might not be a bat **** crazy as many thought. Everything I have read is it would have been WAY cheaper than CERB etc. if we had it in place. Of course it would be argued that it is more expensive in other years...

In the end, just give the money to every adult and rake it back on taxes for those that do not need it. No Welfare, no EI, no CPP, no OAS, reduced healthcare costs, reduced police budgets, etc. It may or may not make sense but it is worth another legit/real look.

Guaranteed income for able bodied people is just like feeding bears. They become dependent, lose their incentive to work, and often become a societal nuisance. Another problem with this idea is it creates a lifestyle that gets passed from generation to generation.

I prefer investing in training people to be useful. Basic personal financial training, fundamental behavioral training, and basic job skills training. The country has lots of work available, set people up for success and independence -- not a lifelong dependency on handouts.

 

[Mad Mike]

Setting the number for GI is very complicated. At $2000/mo, CERB pays enough that many people would choose that over work and the program would be a disaster (high operating costs, impaired GDP). At ~$800 (IIRC ODSP is around there), it is very hard to live. I like a program that a philanthropist setup for his spawn. You work, the trust adds money to your income. No work at all, no money. Everybody can do something constructive. Pick up garbage, call and talk to seniors in nursing homes, etc for those that are unable to do conventional employment.

I think ODSP is closer to $1000/mo. There is a lot of abuse in that program, particularly when caregivers and the effected person are both collecting. I'd prefer a bigger benefit go to those who really need it, coupled with greater oversight on those who are cheating. One of the saddest things I have ever seen was in Hamilton 2 years ago, I was getting cash from an ATM at 3AM, there were 3 ODSP recipients in the bank lobby waiting for their deposits -- a dealer was with them waiting in his car, he brought them to the bank to get his cash.

 

[GreyGhost]

I think ODSP is closer to $1000/mo. There is a lot of abuse in that program, particularly when caregivers and the effected person are both collecting. I'd prefer a bigger benefit go to those who really need it, coupled with greater oversight on those who are cheating. One of the saddest things I have ever seen was in Hamilton 2 years ago, I was getting cash from an ATM at 3AM, there were 3 ODSP recipients in the bank lobby waiting for their deposits -- a dealer was with them waiting in his car, he brought them to the bank to get his cash.

ODSP is a garbage program that no politician wants to touch. It has been used as defacto guaranteed income for addicts for decades with little oversight. I think we all know at least half a dozen people on ODSP who could be functioning members of society if they were required to but choose to fall back on ODSP because it's easy.

 

[Baggsy]

It really shows the concept of a guaranteed min income might not be a bat **** crazy as many thought. Everything I have read is it would have been WAY cheaper than CERB etc. if we had it in place. Of course it would be argued that it is more expensive in other years...

In the end, just give the money to every adult and rake it back on taxes for those that do not need it. No Welfare, no EI, no CPP, no OAS, reduced healthcare costs, reduced police budgets, etc. It may or may not make sense but it is worth another legit/real look.

That's not how the current system works though. Our family has gotten zilch from this. Three are essential workers, and two who don't get paid.

 

[Mad Mike]

ODSP is a garbage program that no politician wants to touch. It has been used as defacto guaranteed income for addicts for decades with little oversight. I think we all know at least half a dozen people on ODSP who could be functioning members of society if they were required to but choose to fall back on ODSP because it's easy.

I'm with you. A lady on my street has a house cleaning business, she lives alone in a $1.5M house and cleans houses for a living. Nice wrapped 2019 Ford Transit mini van -- she checks into CAMH with a fake alcohol/drug addiction every 2 years to get re-upped onto ODSP for $12K a year in bonus money.

 

[Mad Mike]

I'm with you. A lady on my street has a house cleaning business, she lives alone in a $1.5M house and cleans houses for a living. Nice wrapped 2019 Ford Transit mini van -- she checks into CAMH with a fake alcohol/drug addiction every 2 years to get re-upped onto ODSP for $12K a year in bonus money.

GreyGhost, you are right it's sad. I haven't had the guts to report, I think my hard-right NeoCon neighbour has with no results.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Of course the go-to anti min income is lazy people drama..... Guess what, lazy people are already working the system.

ODSP is a garbage program that no politician wants to touch. It has been used as defacto guaranteed income for addicts for decades with little oversight. I think we all know at least half a dozen people on ODSP who could be functioning members of society if they were required to but choose to fall back on ODSP because it's easy.

Of course the O in ODSP is Ontario, so this is under Ford at the moment, not JT.

But conceptually guaranteed min income should wipe out all like programs and in theory lots of like fraud. There will still be the "cash" guys avoiding taxes, but that exists today.

Not saying it will work but it is worth a sober look without the usual drama.

That's not how the current system works though. Our family has gotten zilch from this. Three are essential workers, and two who don't get paid.

Were they out of work or are they looking for CERB money on top of their pay? If so that would be fraud (if they got it)... the programs were for people out of work or hours cut below x.

Everyone I know that was out of work (including health care like physio) due to COVID either got CERB or money from one of the other programs. Just depended if they were employees or "self employed". Lots of confusion early on, which one to apply for, as there was some "overlap". If they were out of work and got nothing IMO they didn't really try to get it.

 

[Evoex]

Posthaste: Small firms have piled on $117B in new debt, but struggling to recover as staff prefer to stay on CERB

More than a quarter report that some of the laid-off staff have refused to return to work when recalled

financialpost.com

 

[GreyGhost]

This BS is infuriating. All of these useless SOB's should be immediately terminated with cause. Liberal MP's filibustered ethics committee meeting to stall WE investigation.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ethics-committee-we-trudeau-scandal-1.5653606

Another Liberal MP, Élisabeth Brière, delivered a rambling 30-minute speech which touched on the definition of democracy, quoted French political scientist Alexis de Tocqueville and his writings on America, recounted her time as a notary and mediator and extolled the virtues of the University of Sherbrooke and the riding she represents.

Liberal MP Greg Fergus, who gave an equally long speech to the committee — at times speaking in Latin and referencing ancient Greece