jacket elbow, shoulder and back armour/padding

[Rob MacLennan]

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I have not seen much sas-tec,, just pictures. The last info I had was they were working on motorcycle stuff but the current product was for less violent
sports.
So I really can"t say much but what I saw in pictures was very interesting.
What most don"t get is,,,I've seen a lot of crashes,,,first hand and viewing,,and nobody yet has deflected the earth! Now I may be wrong but the earth seems to win every time. So hard armour does not make sense. You think a piece of plastic on some foam is going to deflect the ground. You will simply deflect to another part of your body. So any form of soft armour which is engineered is looking at absorbing the impact.
The hard armour on the outside of the suit contradicts what I just said. But it is on the outside. So the titanium shield on the shoulder or carbon fiber shield is designed to allow your shoulder to slide through the hit. So if you were to crash and fell shoulder first the hope is your hard shell on the outside will not grab and your shoulder will slide through the first impact. Preventing maybe a broken collar bone. So this would also help reduce the demand on the armour inside.
But plastic is not very good. It should be Carbon fiber or Titanium. They seem to allow the shoulder to slide thru.
I have seen it work and at first was not an advocate of it.
Any armour is better then none. The plastic stuff can hurt you,yes it has cut people.
But if one has a choice,,get soft armour.
My first introduction to soft armour was Jeff Wiliams at Mosport. He crashed at 175 MPH and the only bruise he had was where the footpeg went thru his leathers. He was wearing Forcefield armour with Carrera leathers. Sold me!

Thanks for the kind words. But keeping you guys and girls safe is important. I've had the chance to be in this sport over 30 years. Seen some big changes in safety. Buy good gear and safe gear,,and fashion statements make no sense when you're lieing in a hospital bed.

Somewhere, at home, I've got shots that I took of Jeff's suit after that get-off. Carrera Canada used them on their site. What was that; 170 miles an hour down the back straight, when his rear tire came apart? The damage to the suit was remarkably light, all things considered. The damage to Jeff even more so.

 

[john bickle]

interesting and informative replies. thanks peeps.

it may sound dumb, but could someone elaborate on the back armour please?

Back armour is a big misleader. No back protector for one will prevent hyperextension of the back. Other then putting a 2x4 on your back and bindinging it every 3 inches if you back is bending a wasit strap will not prevent it. BUT, if your suit fits well and you have a good backprotector hyperextension is reduced just becasue of your body position.
They are simply for impact,, from impacting the ground or being hit. They absorb lots of energy. Anyone that has hit the ground with one and with out can atest to that. They really help protect the tranverse process's on the spine. But a good back protector today is thicker and more pronounced over the spine. So allways take your back protetcor or buy your back protector first before getting a suit.

 

[mimico_polak]

So with all that being said, am I wrong in upgrading my armour to the harder plastic one in my jacket? Currently it has the soft CE armour in the back, shoulder, and elbow areas that comes with the jacket. I've purchased the ICON hard shell replacements for all those items (Stryker back protector, Elbow, and Shoulder)

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...Field-Armor-Impact-2-Shoulder-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...nt-Field-Armor-Impact-2-Elbow-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/1/350/23880/ITEM/Icon-Stryker-CE-Back-Protector.aspx

100% of my riding is on the street, primarily on city roads and not the highway.

 

[john bickle]

Somewhere, at home, I've got shots that I took of Jeff's suit after that get-off. Carrera Canada used them on their site. What was that; 170 miles an hour down the back straight, when his rear tire came apart? The damage to the suit was remarkably light, all things considered. The damage to Jeff even more so.

Jeff had an extra beer that day!

 

[john bickle]

So with all that being said, am I wrong in upgrading my armour to the harder plastic one in my jacket? Currently it has the soft CE armour in the back, shoulder, and elbow areas that comes with the jacket. I've purchased the ICON hard shell replacements for all those items (Stryker back protector, Elbow, and Shoulder)

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...Field-Armor-Impact-2-Shoulder-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...nt-Field-Armor-Impact-2-Elbow-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/1/350/23880/ITEM/Icon-Stryker-CE-Back-Protector.aspx

100% of my riding is on the street, primarily on city roads and not the highway.

Are you sure that is plastic, looks like rubber, which would make it "Soft Armour" The outer shell will be a harder rubber and towards the inside a bit softer.
OR the inside may soften with body heat, this will help it mould better,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sure looks like a rubber product for the elbows. The back protector is a hard armour style. But it has it's pro's street riding. Street riders come across many more obsticals then track riders. So on street riding anything is better then nothing.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Jeff had an extra beer that day!

With their tire issues and Corey, Jeff, and Steve all going down that weekend at high speed, I think that the whole team had a kegger that night.

 

[daught]

Okay,,, take your best friend,,,give him enough beer to get him drunk. Hand him a 10 pound hammer. Put Forcefield,Knox or any company that solely makes armour,,over one hand. Put your choice over the other hand. Tell your friend to hit one. That little piece of plastic will transfer the impact right through to the bone.
Sure my choice will still hurt, but I'll take energy absorbing engineered rubber anyday,all day!

Plastic by itself will be more painful no doubt about it. I specified padded armor. For example the juggernaut suit i posted has soft padding rated CE level 3 with plastic on top of it. You get the benefit of good absorption with better force distribution.

 

[mimico_polak]

Are you sure that is plastic, looks like rubber, which would make it "Soft Armour" The outer shell will be a harder rubber and towards the inside a bit softer.
OR the inside may soften with body heat, this will help it mould better,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sure looks like a rubber product for the elbows. The back protector is a hard armour style. But it has it's pro's street riding. Street riders come across many more obsticals then track riders. So on street riding anything is better then nothing.

I haven't touched it yet as it was ordered and I'm awaiting its arrival next week. The ones in the jacket now seem very soft so I wanted an update. It looked plastic to me so hence the 'hard shell' comment. I will comment once I receive though. Thank you for the input John.

 

[NealT]

Plastic by itself will be more painful no doubt about it. I specified padded armor. For example the juggernaut suit i posted has soft padding rated CE level 3 with plastic on top of it. You get the benefit of good absorption with better force distribution.

i think john meant the plastic armour including the padding. However if you read how Nytrex (used in Forcefield armour) works it actually slows the impact and distributes it across the entire material, so it also distributes the force but with the added function of slowing the velocity of compression at the impact point. The hard shell protectors seem to have their best qualities along the center of the protector with much reduced protection near/at the edges.

To add to info available this test is good reading and I think still relevant:
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/Ride Magazine/Product test pdfs/6 JUN08 Back protector test.pdf

 

[daught]

i think john meant the plastic armour including the padding. However if you read how Nytrex (used in Forcefield armour) works it actually slows the impact and distributes it across the entire material, so it also distributes the force but with the added function of slowing the velocity of compression at the impact point.

How is that any different than good padding with a shell on top? The shell distributes the force throught the material. On top of it it ads abrasion and penetration protection.

The hard shell protectors seem to have their best qualities along the center of the protector with much reduced protection near/at the edges.

The center if the protector is usually the most sensitive area.

 

[Kri$han]

If you can roll the armour off you knee or elbow even some,,guess what mother earth will do when she gets a hold of it.

This is a great line, because it basically says that if you're riding street; commuting to work, or going places, or any ride where you're not just going for a ride and are wearing anything less than full under-body impact armor (hard or soft, like the one's daught posted), you're pretty much boned in an accident.

ANY street gear you buy for your upper body will shift a little: plus there's the added constraint of varying weather conditions, whereby a lot of people (myself included) wear a hoodie under the leathers, and on hot days nothing more than a T-shirt. Sure, the jacket is adjustable, but not so much so that the pads will not move at all.

The more I research about gear, the more it makes me realize that the best defense is defensive riding.

 

[NealT]

How is that any different than good padding with a shell on top? The shell distributes the force throught the material. On top of it it ads abrasion and penetration protection.



The center if the protector is usually the most sensitive area.

I would say the plastic shell depends on a mechanical transference of force, the hardness of the plastic moves some force to the attachment points depending on the shape, other than that I would think the remaining impact force travels directly to the inner foam at point of impact. The soft armour uses the properties of the material instead, at point of impact the molecular structure of the material transmits the force throughout the entire structure evenly.

An example I can think of is hitting a piece of soft piece of wood with a plastic sheet on top. If tapped lightly you won't see deformation in the wood. If hit just hard enough the outline of the hammer head is pushed into the wood. The soft armour on the other hand would be similar to the hammer head instantly increasing in surface area at the instant of impact. So the issue would be the force at which either method dents the wood. The thing is that good soft armour generally behaves and dissipates energy pretty much the same anywhere on the material surface(at the center or closer to the edges).

 

[daught]

I guess in the end we are splitting hairs. As long as it's CE level 3 it's good stuff. I might just grab the forcefield limb tubes for my knees. I wonder how easy it is to put their shirts on compared to the juggernaut suit.

Armor shift is the reason i wanted to get the armor shirt. I doubt any jacket that has enough room for extra layers keeps the armor in place.

 

[RedDogDarren]

Good analogy. Civilian and law enforcement 'bullet resistant' vests use layers of Kevlar, to slow and stop a bullet as it passes through. Military body armour uses ceramics and composites to kill off the energy of the bullet, then layers of Kevlar as a back-up for what gets through.

Military body armour is NOT designed as bullet proof unless as general GI, too expensive for all the troops. It is however designed for shrapnel, where the term flak vest comes from.

 

[daught]

For arguments sake, using your wood analogy, if you hit a piece of wood with a soft pad on top of it you are more likely to see a mark on it than if you would put a piece of steel on top of the foam.

 

[mongol777]

So with all that being said, am I wrong in upgrading my armour to the harder plastic one in my jacket? Currently it has the soft CE armour in the back, shoulder, and elbow areas that comes with the jacket. I've purchased the ICON hard shell replacements for all those items (Stryker back protector, Elbow, and Shoulder)

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...Field-Armor-Impact-2-Shoulder-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...nt-Field-Armor-Impact-2-Elbow-Protectors.aspx

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/1/350/23880/ITEM/Icon-Stryker-CE-Back-Protector.aspx

100% of my riding is on the street, primarily on city roads and not the highway.

I don't know - for some reasons I don't trust Icon gear. For me everythign they make looks more like fashion statement. And every piece of their gear I tried is heavey and uncomfortable. For upgraded armor why not go with Knox, forcefield or sas-tec? Just my 2 cents

 

[NealT]

For arguments sake, using your wood analogy, if you hit a piece of wood with a soft pad on top of it you are more likely to see a mark on it than if you would put a piece of steel on top of the foam.

Not quite, if you said the soft foam would absorb the hit as a solid single entity such that the mark it left on the wood would mirror the outline of the pad and not the hammer head I definitely would agree with you.

 

[daught]

The thing is no padding out there absorbs all the impact force. My concern is what happens with the remainder of the force. It's my impression that a hard shell would distribute that force to a greater surface area.

 

[NealT]

The thing is no padding out there absorbs all the impact force. My concern is what happens with the remainder of the force. It's my impression that a hard shell would distribute that force to a greater surface area.

Not sure that is true, the shape of the plastic helps to partially move the force to another location, but when it collapses it's the same as a pad hitting the ground. If the pad is not up to then distributing the force over the entire surface area then it's just a point impact. So as mentioned in the early posts, a hard shell with a nytrex or similar material under will work much better.

 

[daught]

Not sure that is true, the shape of the plastic helps to partially move the force to another location, but when it collapses it's the same as a pad hitting the ground. If the pad is not up to then distributing the force over the entire surface area then it's just a point impact. So as mentioned in the early posts, a hard shell with a nytrex or similar material under will work much better.

When it collapses, if it collapses, it pushes on the padding underneath it, and like you said it's no different. I just cant see the harm in having a hard shell on top of a energy absorbing pad as opposed to the same energy absorbing pad by itself.

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