jacket elbow, shoulder and back armour/padding

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Kri$han said:
I have CE protectors in my jacket, and have yet to upgrade, as I have only recently discovered something worthy of spending my money on:

I will get as many replacement pads for my existing gear, and try to find new products that feature d3o protection pads. http://www.d3o.com/

I have these in my 661 mountain bike knee guards, and I officially SWEAR by them. They've taken a lot of abuse, but one instance of bashing my knee cap directly onto the apex of a pointed rock at a decent speed (for a bicycle), and all that amounted was a small amount of pain (not even bruising). I would've lost a knee-cap for sure.

Apparently its a special proprietary rubber-like material that hardens on impact... it also is formed in a honey-comb shape to distribute the impact as widely as possible. Brilliant.
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I did read that d3O was very good, works similarly to Nytrex. The comment I read was that overall thickness was a little low, just enough to meet CE cert but that's it. So it transmits more shock to the body which shows up as a "harder" feel on impact as opposed to softer. Probably the trade off for a lower profile when added to clothing.
 
I low sided once at maybe 20 kph so I didn't slide too far. I was wearing my Joe Rocket textile jacket at the time with the liner in. I don't remember feeling the impact when my elbow hit the ground, but looking at the jacket afterwards I saw that the plastic has simply moved around to the side of my arm and the outer layer had a hole in it. The liner was fine but I was missing a little skin on my forearm. Ever since then it's been on my mind to switch to leather.

Oh, I could also just go get a scooter. I hear that the pavement isn't as hard when you fall :confused:
 
I'm actually thinking of going to a smaller size of jacket right now...the one I have is an M and just feels much more loose than when I tried it on at the store. I'm worried that if I fall all the padding/armour will just shift around and be useless anyway.
How loose/fitting should a jacket be anyway?
 
OpenGambit said:
I thought that the dainese armor had foam first and then the plastic shell.
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I used to have a Dainese S-Space Air armour jacket and had CE approved armour. The outer shell was a hard, flexible plastic, backed with open cell foam. The trick was that the actual normal impact points (elbows, knees, shoulders) were under a sort of blister, in the hard plastic armour, that would presumably collapse to absorb impact in a crash.

*EDIT* The armour it used was very much like this, but attached to an elastic mesh jacket.
 

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mimico_polak said:
I'm actually thinking of going to a smaller size of jacket right now...the one I have is an M and just feels much more loose than when I tried it on at the store. I'm worried that if I fall all the padding/armour will just shift around and be useless anyway.
How loose/fitting should a jacket be anyway?
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I like jackets to be borderline tight, that way armour stays put on impact. Leather tends to stretch a little so tight will later translate to perfect when worn in a bit.
When your jackets are snug like this, cut and shape of the jacket becomes really important so finding a brand that actually fits becomes more time consuming.
 
Trouble with the comparison of bullet proof vest is,,,, you're the bullet and the ground is the vest!
If you crash you are the projectile! So being stationary and having a projectile come at you is easy to defend.
If you are the projectile geez who knows what you will encounter.
There is so much counterfeit CE armour in North America it doesn"t matter what it says or has stamped on it.
Who's checking? Have yet to see a CE cop!
As well anything with plastic is very old school. New age armour which is "Soft Armour" has engineered layers of hard rubber/foam.
This absorbs the impact and becasue it deforms spreads out the impact.
If you can roll the armour off you knee or elbow even some,,guess what mother earth will do when she gets a hold of it.
Stick with a company that makes armour,,Forcefield,Knox,Impact Armour. If they don"t throw their product into the British
impact tests,,,,then you should not wear it.
 
john bickle said:
Trouble with the comparison of bullet proof vest is,,,, you're the bullet and the ground is the vest!
If you crash you are the projectile! So being stationary and having a projectile come at you is easy to defend.
If you are the projectile geez who knows what you will encounter.
There is so much counterfeit CE armour in North America it doesn"t matter what it says or has stamped on it.
Who's checking? Have yet to see a CE cop!
As well anything with plastic is very old school. New age armour which is "Soft Armour" has engineered layers of hard rubber/foam.
This absorbs the impact and becasue it deforms spreads out the impact.
If you can roll the armour off you knee or elbow even some,,guess what mother earth will do when she gets a hold of it.
Stick with a company that makes armour,,Forcefield,Knox,Impact Armour. If they don"t throw their product into the British
impact tests,,,,then you should not wear it.
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/thread
 
john bickle said:
Trouble with the comparison of bullet proof vest is,,,, you're the bullet and the ground is the vest!
If you crash you are the projectile! So being stationary and having a projectile come at you is easy to defend.
If you are the projectile geez who knows what you will encounter.
There is so much counterfeit CE armour in North America it doesn"t matter what it says or has stamped on it.
Who's checking? Have yet to see a CE cop!
As well anything with plastic is very old school. New age armour which is "Soft Armour" has engineered layers of hard rubber/foam.
This absorbs the impact and becasue it deforms spreads out the impact.
If you can roll the armour off you knee or elbow even some,,guess what mother earth will do when she gets a hold of it.
Stick with a company that makes armour,,Forcefield,Knox,Impact Armour. If they don"t throw their product into the British
impact tests,,,,then you should not wear it.
Click to expand...

Perfect timing for this thread. I was looking in to upgrading my armor after my high side. I did a lot of reading recently.

Basically one camp says that soft armor absorbs impact much better. Hard armor tends to deflect the impact to it's sides. Funny enough when I read that, I remembered that my knees hurt on the side when I landed on them, just around where my hard armor ends. While soft armor might absorb more impact, I much rather deflect the impact from my elbow and knee caps to the side. A knee cap is much more sensitive to damage than what's around it.


Right now I am looking at layering my riding gear. I want to wear a vest with all the armor to make sure it stays in place and stand alone knee pads. I looked at close to 100 armor suits. I found that most lack proper description of what armor they really have. CE rating isn't enough.
I narrowed it down to two:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motorcycle-armor/velocity-gear/juggernaut.htm
The armor is well documented and it's top of the line. Level 2 back Level 3 everything else. Remember back and everything else have different standards. Probably my next purchase.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/2/6/10/10600/ITEM/Alpinestars-Bionic-2-Protection-Jacket.aspx
I like that it has a level 2 back protector but there's no mention what level the rest of the stuff is(read bellow about levelrating). I really like it's kidney belt.

Forcefield stuff seems really nice too, but like I said I rather have some hard stuff to deflect the impact from sensitive areas.
http://www.forcefieldbodyarmour.com/product/pro-shirt/2407

Knee pads:
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...Racing-Alpha-Knee-Guards.aspx?WT.ac=SLIsearch
Major overkill. Not CE rated unfortunately, but that doesen't mean they are not good. Looks like they would protect the foot very well when it hits the handlebars.




Two threads that have a lot of good content:
http://www.svrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-46956.html
http://www.r6-forum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20280.html


IMHO most important part from the links above

"The CE BACK PROTECTOR standard is labeled EN1621-2. The test is performed with a 5kg “kerbstone” dropped from one meter to create the test impact energy of 50 Joules. The standard contains two levels of force transmission performance. 18kN passes LEVEL 1 "basic" compliance and 9kN passes LEVEL 2 "high performance" compliance. So LEVEL 2 protectors allow 50% less force to reach the spine/ribs.

The CE LIMB/JOINT PROTECTOR standard is labeled EN1621-1. It allows joint/limb armor to transmit no more than 35kN of force for all levels. Both of the CE body armor standards(back or limb) use the same amount of energy as a starting point, 50 joules. However, limb/joint armor ratings are based on performance at 50 joules, 75 joules, or 100 joules, leading to 3 levels of performance within this standard. All 3 levels allow no more than 35 kN of force to transmit: LEVEL 1 (50 joules), LEVEL 2 "high performance" (75 joules), and LEVEL 3 "extreme performance" (100 joules).
“Astrene” gel/foam in 8mm non-perforated thickness, “Astrosorb” in 8.5mm perforated form, and T-Pro’s four layers of “Armour-Flex” material are all rated to the extreme performance level (100J), making them the highest-rated materials used in limb/joint armor."

Basically there's a lot more to just a CE rating.
 
how do those armored suits work with the stuff on the elbows and shoulders if you already have a jacket that has the shoulders and arms.? Or do you just buy leathers that have no armor to go over top?
 
Rob MacLennan said:
I'd rather leave it as voluntary, since people might post links to good gear ;)

Bick is the most knowledgeable person i have ever met, when it comes to track safety and protective gear.
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I know, just messing with ya;) Bickle is very knowledgeable. Love chatting with him.
 
2 Bick - what are your thoughts on sas-tec for street riding? I really like it and going to order second set for another jacket.
Would love to hear your opinion
 
I have not seen much sas-tec,, just pictures. The last info I had was they were working on motorcycle stuff but the current product was for less violent
sports.
So I really can"t say much but what I saw in pictures was very interesting.
What most don"t get is,,,I've seen a lot of crashes,,,first hand and viewing,,and nobody yet has deflected the earth! Now I may be wrong but the earth seems to win every time. So hard armour does not make sense. You think a piece of plastic on some foam is going to deflect the ground. You will simply deflect to another part of your body. So any form of soft armour which is engineered is looking at absorbing the impact.
The hard armour on the outside of the suit contradicts what I just said. But it is on the outside. So the titanium shield on the shoulder or carbon fiber shield is designed to allow your shoulder to slide through the hit. So if you were to crash and fell shoulder first the hope is your hard shell on the outside will not grab and your shoulder will slide through the first impact. Preventing maybe a broken collar bone. So this would also help reduce the demand on the armour inside.
But plastic is not very good. It should be Carbon fiber or Titanium. They seem to allow the shoulder to slide thru.
I have seen it work and at first was not an advocate of it.
Any armour is better then none. The plastic stuff can hurt you,yes it has cut people.
But if one has a choice,,get soft armour.
My first introduction to soft armour was Jeff Wiliams at Mosport. He crashed at 175 MPH and the only bruise he had was where the footpeg went thru his leathers. He was wearing Forcefield armour with Carrera leathers. Sold me!

Thanks for the kind words. But keeping you guys and girls safe is important. I've had the chance to be in this sport over 30 years. Seen some big changes in safety. Buy good gear and safe gear,,and fashion statements make no sense when you're lieing in a hospital bed.
 
john bickle said:
I have not seen much sas-tec,, just pictures. The last info I had was they were working on motorcycle stuff but the current product was for less violent
sports.
So I really can"t say much but what I saw in pictures was very interesting.
What most don"t get is,,,I've seen a lot of crashes,,,first hand and viewing,,and nobody yet has deflected the earth! Now I may be wrong but the earth seems to win every time. So hard armour does not make sense. You think a piece of plastic on some foam is going to deflect the ground. You will simply deflect to another part of your body. So any form of soft armour which is engineered is looking at absorbing the impact.
The hard armour on the outside of the suit contradicts what I just said. But it is on the outside. So the titanium shield on the shoulder or carbon fiber shield is designed to allow your shoulder to slide through the hit. So if you were to crash and fell shoulder first the hope is your hard shell on the outside will not grab and your shoulder will slide through the first impact. Preventing maybe a broken collar bone. So this would also help reduce the demand on the armour inside.
But plastic is not very good. It should be Carbon fiber or Titanium. They seem to allow the shoulder to slide thru.
I have seen it work and at first was not an advocate of it.
Any armour is better then none. The plastic stuff can hurt you,yes it has cut people.
But if one has a choice,,get soft armour.
My first introduction to soft armour was Jeff Wiliams at Mosport. He crashed at 175 MPH and the only bruise he had was where the footpeg went thru his leathers. He was wearing Forcefield armour with Carrera leathers. Sold me!

Thanks for the kind words. But keeping you guys and girls safe is important. I've had the chance to be in this sport over 30 years. Seen some big changes in safety. Buy good gear and safe gear,,and fashion statements make no sense when you're lieing in a hospital bed.
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Thank you John! You are welcome to check out sas-tec armor - I am downtown weekdays and in Mississauga on Fri.
 
Deflection was a bad word choice. I meant distribution. I believe the plastic cup WITH padding distributes the impact force to a greater area. Especially areas that are not that as sensitive as the impact point. More area equals less force at the impact point therefore less injury. Some plastic knee armor cups have extra space at the knee cap. That way even if you fall directly on your sensitive knee cap the impact force is exerted beside it.

Dunno maybe the forcefield stuff is awesome and I would love to see supporting evidence. The pro shirt looks like an awesome solution for a lot of sports. It's just that these days there so much marketing you dont know what to believe.
 
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interesting and informative replies. thanks peeps.

it may sound dumb, but could someone elaborate on the back armour please?
 
daught said:
Deflection was a bad word choice. I meant distribution. I believe the plastic cup WITH padding distributes the impact force to a greater area. Especially areas that are not that as sensitive as the impact point. More area equals less force at the impact point therefore less injury. Some plastic knee armor cups have extra space at the knee cap. That way even if you fall directly on your sensitive knee cap the impact force is exerted beside it.

Dunno maybe the forcefield stuff is awesome and I would love to see supporting evidence. The pro shirt looks like an awesome solution for a lot of sports. It's just that these days there so much marketing you dont know what to believe.
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Okay,,, take your best friend,,,give him enough beer to get him drunk. Hand him a 10 pound hammer. Put Forcefield,Knox or any company that solely makes armour,,over one hand. Put your choice over the other hand. Tell your friend to hit one. That little piece of plastic will transfer the impact right through to the bone.
Sure my choice will still hurt, but I'll take energy absorbing engineered rubber anyday,all day!
 
Love my Forcefield stuff, I think it still remains true but Forcefield still is the only manufacturer to have a motorcycle specific protector that exceeds CE level 2 (transferring less than 4 Kn of force to the body). I am curious about the airbag jackets and vests as they seem as though they may be able to do a similar job. The drawback I guess is more complexity which of course increases the chance of failure compared to passive aids like current body armour.
 
I think the air bag stuff will only excel marketing when the repair process is in place. So can you repack the air bag and instal a new cartridge? Otherwise it's a bit exspensive for the mortal. But I do believe it is the future. Look at most crashs on the track. You take one big ht and then then it reduces from there. So the air bag has the ability to absorb tremendous energy. Like Air Fence.
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