Didn't mean you in particular, just a figure of speech.
Is Ontario Ready for "Right to Work" Legislation?
- Thread starter ItIsWhatItIs
- Start date
Didn't mean you in particular, just a figure of speech.
I doubt the jobs would be sent to China over 3% pay difference. If a company is sending the jobs to China that 3% doesnt matter.
The Autoworkers in Europe are unionized, as well as the autoworkers in Japan.
Germans by German cars, Japanese buy Jap, and Koreans by Korean........here not so much, and that is the problem.
People are like crabs in a bucket.. Just as one is about to climb out, others grab onto it and pull it down. The unions are the last bastion of the middle class.. Once they get neutered by eliminating the effectiveness of collective bargaining, everybody's wages and benefits will go down and we'll accelerate our downward spiral. Our current regime is tough enough to tell Joe Schmoe that he can't bargain for his pay and benefits effectively but not tough enough to tell the corporations that if they wanna make money in Canada, they have to hire Canadian workers.
Or...you can run unions properly:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/
German auto workers...all unionised.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/
German auto workers...all unionised.
Can't run'em properly if the government legislates'em out of existence/relevance
I'm unionised...have used the union a couple of times for grievances and each time they have pulled through for me when I know for certain I would have had to toe the party line if I wasn't unionised and in my particular case that would have cost me many thousands of dollars. Basically I was told "don't do this we don't like it just because" and the union said "it's legal, keep doing it, we will tell them it's legal".
I'm a big believer in unions when they do it right. Sadly there are cases where the balance isn't correct and just like the British auto industry the results are only too easy to see. Then you have corruption that creeps in when certain people like the feeling of power a bit too much and that ruins it for everyone too. Take away the unions and you're trusting corporations to run everything...most corporations exist to make money for shareholders, their primary concern is not their workers (see Walmart for example).
I'm from the UK and we tend to have a bit more of a socialist outlook on things and socialism isn't as dirty a word as it is here in North America. The unions are part and parcel of making sure that exploitation of those without power and influence does not take place.
I'm a big believer in unions when they do it right. Sadly there are cases where the balance isn't correct and just like the British auto industry the results are only too easy to see. Then you have corruption that creeps in when certain people like the feeling of power a bit too much and that ruins it for everyone too. Take away the unions and you're trusting corporations to run everything...most corporations exist to make money for shareholders, their primary concern is not their workers (see Walmart for example).
I'm from the UK and we tend to have a bit more of a socialist outlook on things and socialism isn't as dirty a word as it is here in North America. The unions are part and parcel of making sure that exploitation of those without power and influence does not take place.
Not all of them are like that and even different locals are managed differently.. In UA Local 787, if you don't perform, you sit on the bench and don't get to work. I've only seen that one from the outside, but many want to get in, few leave, they pay well, offer top-notch training and professionalism to give value for the 20% higher wages + a kickass benny package. The problem is that most the mass media is for-profit and now it's profitable to wage a war on unions and the middle class in general so they only show one side of the coin. Just because one TTC employee fell asleep at work doesn't mean that every union worker is a lazy bum or that something like that doesn't happen to non-unionized employees
Can't apply the law selectively.. I'd accept it if there were also mandatory 4 year votes in non-union shops
They are smart, the people in Germany buy German cars, and use North America as cheap labour while paying their people $67 an hour.
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
Motorcycle Mike
Well-known member
When auto manufacturers first unionized and started paying their employees decent wages they had a pleasant surprise that workers with money spend money -- they sold a lot more cars once people had money to afford them.
I can't understand why companies are in a race for the bottom in terms of wages when at the end of the day you need someone to buy your product.
I am happy to be in a union despite the high dues and protection for crappy workers. I like how easy it is to deal with management when they do something unfair -- like OT bypass, refusal of time off, etc,. Most importantly, though, is my union's commitment to safety.
I once worked for a company that demanded, as part of my job, to run a diesel truck inside a warehouse with little circulation. They had a CO monitor, but I doubt it worked. I had a persistent sore throat for over a month and was constantly sick/no energy. I went to the doctor more than once, and finally HR... the company refused to do anything for me. I didn't have any sick days to take time off to find out how to contact a labour board, and I didn't make enough to afford any time off. I couldn't easily quit because then I would not get EI. In the end I lucked out and found a better job and the company didn't care at all -- they had huge turn-over (more than 10 came and left in a year from a 20 man crew!) -- they knew they would find some other sucker willing to work in unsafe conditions. If that place was unionized, one call to a shop steward would have had the operation halted, labour board brought in, and my job would not be in jeopardy.
I can't understand why companies are in a race for the bottom in terms of wages when at the end of the day you need someone to buy your product.
I am happy to be in a union despite the high dues and protection for crappy workers. I like how easy it is to deal with management when they do something unfair -- like OT bypass, refusal of time off, etc,. Most importantly, though, is my union's commitment to safety.
I once worked for a company that demanded, as part of my job, to run a diesel truck inside a warehouse with little circulation. They had a CO monitor, but I doubt it worked. I had a persistent sore throat for over a month and was constantly sick/no energy. I went to the doctor more than once, and finally HR... the company refused to do anything for me. I didn't have any sick days to take time off to find out how to contact a labour board, and I didn't make enough to afford any time off. I couldn't easily quit because then I would not get EI. In the end I lucked out and found a better job and the company didn't care at all -- they had huge turn-over (more than 10 came and left in a year from a 20 man crew!) -- they knew they would find some other sucker willing to work in unsafe conditions. If that place was unionized, one call to a shop steward would have had the operation halted, labour board brought in, and my job would not be in jeopardy.
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
Mike, with all due respect, you could have done the exact same thing. You dont need a Union to halt work and call labour board about an unsafe work environment. I have done it numerous times at a non-union place.
After working over 10 years in non-union, I'm enjoying this new job I've been working last 2 years that is unionized. No stress and I can slack off without being disciplined as long I meet the monthly productivity level. Yes I'm one of those lazy workers. Hooray for unions!
ItIsWhatItIs
Banned
The auto unions are dishonest and hypocrits. They exploit workers from non union part suppliers such as magna and others who routinely use agencies and pay close to minimum wage. When convenient the union will agree to collective agreements which benefit long tenured employees over new hires. Uneducated union workers are not middle class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class
Quit deluding yourself with your allusions of entitlement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class
Quit deluding yourself with your allusions of entitlement.
Where are you getting this $65 number from? Can you back it up or are you just regurgitating the crap you hear elsewhere? For the record I am not part of a union, I do work in the auto industry and I am not a assembly line worker.
Motorcycle Mike
Well-known member
Oh, I know I could have accomplished the same thing, the difference is that it is much easier with a union. One call to a good shop steward and often you are done -- nothing else to think about. Apparently your teamsters union did not have good reps. If I am bypassed for OT, for example, and it is a legit case, I probably wouldn't even have to file a grievance. My rep would go to my manager, present the facts and state "So and so is going to grieve the bypass, they will win, are you going to pay now or later".
Overall, though, I like being in a union because everything is spelled out -- for you and your manager. In fact, my collective agreement saved me from my manager's dereliction of duties today:
Two weeks ago I requested, in writing, today off of work. I requested it as time comped from OT I worked in the past. The first week went by and I didn't hear anything, but I wasn't worried because my collective agreement states that if comp. time is requested 10 or more days prior, and acceptance or denial has not been given within 5 days, then the comp. time is deemed approved. I approached my manager on Wednesday and she had forgotten all about it, but the day off was mine because the rules are spelled out in the CA. TL;DR -- My collective agreement protects me from crappy management.
What I cannot understand about the heavily unionized North America is the fact that people keep bitching about jobs, but they will not change, they rather join union and keep at it .... if you hate the job so much, why don't you go do something else??????? You have a choice ... unless you are lazy to switch ... or too old to switch, but that's a different topic.
IUt sounds like a union is to guarantee you a job so you ever don't have to change either a company or a profession or direction where your career is going. Just amazing ....
Back to the question, yes bring the law on.
IUt sounds like a union is to guarantee you a job so you ever don't have to change either a company or a profession or direction where your career is going. Just amazing ....
Back to the question, yes bring the law on.
Meanwhile my union dues come out every month, almost everyone in my field makes minimum wage and the union refused to mediate or provide legal help when I had a dispute with my former employer.
Also when there actually were meetings they sent out the info 3 days prior, everyone got their notices at 5pm the same day it was happening at 6.
