Homelessness Solved in U.S. Sanctuary New York City during COVID last year | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Homelessness Solved in U.S. Sanctuary New York City during COVID last year

If you are showing up in the ICU regularly (my wife sees regulars, some trying to OD) then you are a danger to yourself. Many of the people living on the streets with mental illness are not living in safe situations. Therefor they are a danger to themselves. If someone is fighting with the sidewalk then they are a danger to others. I'd imagine it would be easier to mistake a person for your enemy over a sidewalk. If you are doing drugs in plain site in the park, that is illegal. Go to jail or rehab.

Again, my only beef is with the methadone clinics/safe injection sites that make being an addict easier not the general homeless population. In San Fransisco I was wondering the streets smoking a joint late at night and offered some to a friendly homeless guy and he said "No thanks, that **** can ruin your life" (while he's living on a piece of cardboard). He was a nice guy and I have no problem with people like him. Similar story when I was in Venice beach. LAX area late at night? the most terrifying homeless people.
 
Many of the people living on the streets with mental illness are not living in safe situations. Therefor they are a danger to themselves. If someone is fighting with the sidewalk then they are a danger to others. I'd imagine it would be easier to mistake a person for your enemy over a sidewalk. If you are doing drugs in plain site in the park, that is illegal. Go to jail or rehab.

Sorry, are you a police officer, or another officer of the court that you can make that distinction with authority? Do you not think family members haven't tried and have had this overturned in a court?
 
Sorry, are you a police officer, or another officer of the court that you can make that distinction with authority? Do you not think family members haven't tried and have had this overturned in a court?
I am not. but the way things are being done is not working and they need to change. Maybe police officers and Doctors need more authority to keep the loonies in the loony bin? I think that more likely, the jail/rehab choice needs to be a first step when something illegal is done to make a dent in the most dangerous portion of the homeless population. If you're still f'd up on fentanyl every day, those mental health supports are not going to be effective.
 
I am not. but the way things are being done is not working and they need to change. Maybe police officers and Doctors need more authority to keep the loonies in the loony bin? I think that more likely, the jail/rehab choice needs to be a first step when something illegal is done to make a dent in the most dangerous portion of the homeless population. If you're still f'd up on fentanyl every day, those mental health supports are not going to be effective.

SMH. I'm out.
 
I am not. but the way things are being done is not working and they need to change. Maybe police officers and Doctors need more authority to keep the loonies in the loony bin? I think that more likely, the jail/rehab choice needs to be a first step when something illegal is done to make a dent in the most dangerous portion of the homeless population. If you're still f'd up on fentanyl every day, those mental health supports are not going to be effective.
Maybe we can consider the way "loonies" were handled in Germany in 1939?
 
Again, I'm advocating for:
-Less methadone clinics/safe injection sites
-getting those that need help off of the streets and into the institutions that can help them

I used the word loony and you jump to nazis murdering people with disabilities.
 
Maybe we can consider the way "loonies" were handled in Germany in 1939?
And that is the slippery slope of institutionalizing and forcing it is unethical at the minimum, slide down that slope and it is much more than that. This is all a problem for the group that has serious addiction or metal illness (what I had as Group 2 on my list). Leaving them to freeze on the street is also unethical....

Enabling is also unethical (but seems to be the approach du jour), specially if it causes the person to slide farther down the addiction or illness path to end up in that group.
 
Maybe we can consider the way "loonies" were handled in Germany in 1939?

Why dig back in the past to Nazi Germany? You only have to go back a few months to when our own government was (up until August) steering people with mental issues into using MAiD.


“He was told in his original phone call where he was offered MAiD, ‘we can do it for you, because we’ve done it before, and one veteran that we’ve done this for, after we completed MAiD, after we killed him, we now have supports in place for his wife and two children'”
 
Again, I'm advocating for:
-Less methadone clinics/safe injection sites
-getting those that need help off of the streets and into the institutions that can help them

I used the word loony and you jump to nazis murdering people with disabilities.
I have one friend who is a cop, and another a mental health nurse. Each of them is in a small ON town with a ravaging opioid problem. They count OD's by the number/day, and they no longer count deaths. Both have said meth clinics are a double-edged sword -- necessary for those trying to rehabilitate, and death-spiral fuel for the majority who are not.

Noxalone kits take the last ounce of fear out of chronic substance abusers - the little worrying they did about overdosing or Fentanyl poisoning has all but gone. As long as one in the group stays alert enough to administer Noxalone, nobody fears $2 H.

My feeling is there should be a lot more aggressive hunting of traffickers. I was shocked to know that inmates being released from incarceration are handed a 2 dose kit. Also shocked by the number of opioid zombies I've seen wandering around the downtowns of small Ontario ((Guelph, Sudbury, Peterboro & Timmins all shocked me this summer).

It can be that hard to identify people in the supply chain. Find them. Arrest them. Then really, really punish them.

,
 
I have one friend who is a cop, and another a mental health nurse. Each of them is in a small ON town with a ravaging opioid problem. They count OD's by the number/day, and they no longer count deaths. Both have said meth clinics are a double-edged sword -- necessary for those trying to rehabilitate, and death-spiral fuel for the majority who are not.

Noxalone kits take the last ounce of fear out of chronic substance abusers - the little worrying they did about overdosing or Fentanyl poisoning has all but gone. As long as one in the group stays alert enough to administer Noxalone, nobody fears $2 H.

My feeling is there should be a lot more aggressive hunting of traffickers. I was shocked to know that inmates being released from incarceration are handed a 2 dose kit. Also shocked by the number of opioid zombies I've seen wandering around the downtowns of small Ontario ((Guelph, Sudbury, Peterboro & Timmins all shocked me this summer).

It can be that hard to identify people in the supply chain. Find them. Arrest them. Then really, really punish them.

,
Yes! War on drugs is a proven successful policy.

IMHO. Legalize everything. Drugs don't make people violent, sourcing them creates violence. Set up all inclusive camps outside of populated areas. I know, it's an immoral solution. Rehab and support would be so much better but there's no funds for that. There won't be funds for rehab in the foreseeable future. We're barely keeping emergency rooms open. War on drugs and what we have now are absolute failures.

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Yes! War on drugs is a proven successful policy.

IMHO. Legalize everything. Drugs don't make people violent, sourcing them creates violence. Set up all inclusive camps outside of populated areas. I know, it's an immoral solution. Rehab and support would be so much better but there's no funds for that. There won't be funds for rehab in the foreseeable future. We're barely keeping emergency rooms open. War on drugs and what we have now are absolute failures.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
Legal or not, some drugs create a significant drain on society. For this one you have to look at history -- going way back the impact of opium and alcohol were huge burdens on society, so much so that control measures were no option. Unless drugs, including alcohol, were free, there will be an element of society that becomes dependent, some will choose or get trapped with substance abuse, and their primary occupation becomes doing whatever it takes to fund their addictions - and that's often crime.

I'm not sure we actually have a war on drugs, it's an uncoordinated mess. Seems to me cutting off the head of the snake has to help, that means shutting down supply chains.

Maybe China has it right with respect to prosecution -- they cut off the head of the snake to save many at the bottom.
 
As mentioned above, the homeless do not fit one or two distinct profiles. Some are able but unwilling to change their circumstances, for others it's a bit more difficult than: "Just get a job!"

I volunteered at a Suicide Prevention/Distress Centre Hotline for a couple of years and a lot of the callers who would use our services were in and out of hostels and shelters. They all suffered from varying levels of mental illness. There were some that just walked away from a home and family and voluntarily decided to live on the streets.

So yes, we have (and always had) a lot of services for the mentally ill. However, regarding those with concerned family with the means and access to additional resources, the Ontario Mental Health Act states that you cannot commit someone to a facility or force them to seek psychiatric help unless they are a danger to themselves or others or their health declines that they require hospitalization.

Plenty slip through the cracks and due to the nature of their illness are incapable of helping themselves or allowing others to help them.

It's a very sad situation that unfortunately does not have clear-cut answers or solutions.

I agree there is no simple solution.

On the drug issue I'd offer a possible solution based on one specific case.

A colleague had a niece that was hooked on heroin. She was from a well-to-do family that bailed her out every time she ended up in jail or court. They paid for revolving door rehabs. They paid for dental work and other fixes to her self abuse. Another revolving door.

Then she got pregnant. She suddenly went clean because she had something to live for. I've lost touch but hopefully the kid and mom are both OK.

People have to achievable goals. Some have to be shown that goals are important. You can't drop out of high school anymore and make things work out.

There are numerous sub groups of homeless and welfare types.

PTSD is nasty and unpredictable. We scorn the victim and ignore the harm done by the perpetrators. Aileen Wuornos (Monster) was a prostitute that was executed for murdering seven of her clients. She had been sexually abused since her early teens. Was there any effort in going after the perverts that turned her into a killer? How many similar cases are there?

I get tired of hearing the USA "Thank you for your service to your country" and then they trash a vet living on the street because of the PTSD he suffered from seeing his buddy's head get blown off in the Middle East.

A couple making $200K a year want a house then kids but can't afford step one, the house. So they say F it and go Carpe Diem, spend on depreciating assets and luxuries. A couple making $100K doesn't get the luxuries part. Carpe Diem, for them, is survival.

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. That seems to be the mantra of big business. It has to be because profits have to grow and there's no easy pickings any more. Trickle down economics actually trickles down poverty.

Mega Corp puts pressure on Midi Corp to cut prices. Midi Corp passes the demand on to Mini Corp. Mini Corp passes it onto their employees one way or another. Replace full time workers with part time, go offshore, abuse foreign worker laws, contract employees. At some point you can't get any more juice from the orange.

There are 168 hours in a week. You only need 56 hours of sleep. If you can't work 112 hours a week you're a loser?

What is a reality? With free trade deals you could be competing with someone who will work for 112 hours a week and sleep in a bunk that gets rented out eight hours at a time.

What do you do with those that can't cope?

Some of them are snowflakes about to melt. We in the west aren't used to much of the world's reality. Big business says you're unworthy if you don't buy more trinkets and baubles, drink more lattes.

I blame big business for much of the problem. To ensure growth they have to get people to buy more. To do that they have to make people discontented. Keep telling people they are a loser if they don't own stuff and they either own stuff or become disillusioned.

I think we need some degree of predictability in life. That is gone. We need some degree of security and that too is largely gone. Talk to any estate attorney and there are countless stories of brother vs brother back stabbing.

There are well meaning people that think they know what you need. They don't but their ego won't let their eyes open.

Rant #2 over
 
Legal or not, some drugs create a significant drain on society. For this one you have to look at history -- going way back the impact of opium and alcohol were huge burdens on society, so much so that control measures were no option. Unless drugs, including alcohol, were free, there will be an element of society that becomes dependent, some will choose or get trapped with substance abuse, and their primary occupation becomes doing whatever it takes to fund their addictions - and that's often crime.

I'm not sure we actually have a war on drugs, it's an uncoordinated mess. Seems to me cutting off the head of the snake has to help, that means shutting down supply chains.

Maybe China has it right with respect to prosecution -- they cut off the head of the snake to save many at the bottom.
Continuing on rant mode....

Drug dealing is a business. Where there is available profit there will be motivated sellers.

To shut down a business all you need to do is make it unprofitable. If you make it more expensive by drug busts the prices just go up to cover the narc busts. If you eliminate the clientele the business atrophies and dies.

Video rental shops weren't legislated out of existence. They got shut down by Right click, scroll down, click, click.

If people stop using drugs the meth labs disappear, smuggling mules don't get free vacations to Columbia, etc. It destroys the supply chain from the bottom up.

Why do people take drugs? Answer: They aren't happy with their situation.

Why aren't they happy with their situation? Now we get into the whole "I've got to be special" brain washing thing.

Some days I want to go Attila the Hun and outlaw everything short of breathing. Other days, bat left and make it a free for all. God can sort it out later.
 
Drugs are definitely the driving issue in Peterborough. The downtown has always had homeless issues but we have become so welcoming that it has now killed the entire downtown restaurant/bar/entertainment scene. Last summer I brought my kids and their bikes to town to take a ride around little lake. Good luck making it 40ft without having to deal with another group of junkies.

We have become way too accommodating. I used to watch allot of intervention and hitting "rock bottom" was generally the only way to get someone into rehab. The enabling mother that just just trying to help was always the biggest challenge. They keep adding safe injection sites, methadone clinics, allowing the homeless to turn the bus shelters into places to congregate and do drugs together, etc. As long as they can keep doing drugs and stay safe, they will not change.

A co-worker of mine saw a guy screaming at the sidewalk and whipping it with his coat the other day. Everyone is just acting like its totally normal. He was pointing out that 20 yrs ago someone would have called the police. Does he need to go to jail? probably not. Give them the choice: jail, rehab, mental hospital. I would much rather see my tax dollars expand these services over making the drug addicts comfortable and safe so that they multiply.

Sorry if this is not politically correct thinking but I really liked Peterborough when I first moved here and it has became an absolute **** hole in the last two years. I no longer have any interest in taking my family downtown to support local businesses.
Peterborough used to be part of my sales turf 30 years ago and I really liked the place. Sorry to hear it's gone downhill.

I used to call on Quaker, the PUC, and General Electric. GE had shrunk in size from it hay days and Westclock became a condo, OMC became a canoe museum. I'm not sure what became of Alpha Laval. Tourism based economies are fine in third world countries where expectations of the worker is low.

Are the homeless locals or Toronto homeless that can't stand the GTA?
 
I am genuinely curious as to what has happened I went to school in Peterborough and never noticed any of those things that are mentioned now. Why as a society have we gone so far downhill I notice it in Guelph and everywhere else lately what happened to make it acceptable or likely. Small towns seem to be the worst now whereas before they never actually seen that bad for this kind of thing.

Sent from the future
 
I knew a Christian missionary who said some Christian Schools were worse for drugs than the secular ones. Parents thought sending their drug addicted offspring to a Christian school would put them in a safer environment. Instead they flooded the schools with druggies. Is there a parallel where people want to get out of heathen Toronto to the point they polute the pool elsewhere?

Small town welfare budgets can get hammered by this sort of thing. If P'boro spent like Toronto they'd go broke overnight.

I wonder how many scamfare bums would fold if the city told them to freeze to death in the dark.

 
Peterborough used to be part of my sales turf 30 years ago and I really liked the place. Sorry to hear it's gone downhill.

I used to call on Quaker, the PUC, and General Electric. GE had shrunk in size from it hay days and Westclock became a condo, OMC became a canoe museum. I'm not sure what became of Alpha Laval. Tourism based economies are fine in third world countries where expectations of the worker is low.

Are the homeless locals or Toronto homeless that can't stand the GTA?

I have heard stories, as well as an op-ed in the local paper claiming that people are being given one way bus tickets from the city and being told that Peterborough has more resources to help them. Mostly hear-say though. The closest I've gotten is a second hand story.

I remember just a few years ago my Aunt and Uncle wanting to move out of the city and were deciding between Peterborough and Guelph. I gave a big pitch for Peterborough and noted that there were allot of homeless people but they kept to themselves or even friendly and didn't bother anyone. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone now. The drugs have made the people on the streets more desperate and less predictable. From what I'm reading here, Guelph isn't doing much better.
 
I have heard stories, as well as an op-ed in the local paper claiming that people are being given one way bus tickets from the city and being told that Peterborough has more resources to help them. Mostly hear-say though. The closest I've gotten is a second hand story.

I remember just a few years ago my Aunt and Uncle wanting to move out of the city and were deciding between Peterborough and Guelph. I gave a big pitch for Peterborough and noted that there were allot of homeless people but they kept to themselves or even friendly and didn't bother anyone. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone now. The drugs have made the people on the streets more desperate and less predictable. From what I'm reading here, Guelph isn't doing much better.
Sadly there is considerable overlap between the services that elderly people want and need and homeless people want and need (public transportation, stores within walking distance, ideally something interesting to look at, etc).

I don't know how to deal with the frequent flyers and I think that is where changes should start. It is low-hanging fruit where adjusting the life path of a relatively small number of people can free up services for others. There are more than a few people in Barrie that are well known to first responders that OD, get Narcan and taken to hospital, then police drive them back downtown and the cycle repeats over and over. That is a really expensive lap that did nothing to change the situation or minimize the chance it happens again. They are working on a safe injection site where they test your drugs before you take them but I'm not sure if that will change the cycle much.
 

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