HighSide at Mosport - Aug 17 | Page 6 | GTAMotorcycle.com

HighSide at Mosport - Aug 17

Organizers desperately need to have a rethink. Maybe no green group before a race? Tell people there are racers mixed in with the group(s)?

they did that on Wednesday, but still ended up with a lot of green group riders in the yellow group, its easy for guys/gals to lie about their track experience and tell the organizers they belong in the yellow group instead of green
 
What you cant see it that our pace was almost the same and I had 2 riders in front that I slowed and knew I could pass on the straight. Him and I could see the lap traffic from the top of 4, I slowed and he took it as a chance to pass us all. Could have passed on their outside as well but waited as we were told no passing in the corners. You can see I had plenty of chances to pass but backed off every time. I dont want anyone in a green group that close to me. Yes he had skill and took the Win by alot on Sunday but I dont trust anyone in a green group and never would...

You've got a big bike with the power to pass on the straight, he doesn't. He made his pass where he could.

I'm not defending him or condemning you, just stating my point of view.
 
You've got a big bike with the power to pass on the straight, he doesn't. He made his pass where he could.

I'm not defending him or condemning you, just stating my point of view.

two words - green group. This would have been the right time, as a newbie, to be loud with the td organizer.
 
I am one of the Ninja 300 racers and here is my point of view:

I did Monday and Tuesday track days last week. Since I had never been to the track before I was told I should be in green group. We were also told to only pass on the straights. But after a session or two I was having to park it in every corner to avoid running over most bikes out there. I tried to switch groups but was told I couldn't. Again, there is no way in hell I'm passing a 600 or 1000 on the straight on a 36HP bike. So I'm supposed to spend my $300 track day putting around. After asking again to change groups and again being told I can't it was suggested I make the passes around the outside. So the rest of the two days I passed tones of bikes and was much better. This was way safer than having to slam on the brakes to not plow into someone. Never divebombed anyone though. Made many of these passes right in front of marshals and was never an issue.

Next year I'll be in yellow for sure.

.......you know who failed here? The organizers. Green group is, usually from my experience, the most jammed group. Yellow and red should have buffer space to allow people to shift between groups. Heck, I've never gone to a track day where they didn't let me go up.

Honestly, I don't think the riders were at fault here.
 
Also keep in mind Thursday is put on by Riders Choice, Mon Tues Wed were Pro 6.

Maybe some information wasn't communicated well.

We knew Mon that Wed wouldn't have a green group. Thursday has historically been a race practice day disguised as a TD. I quit riding Thursday years ago as I was just a moving pylon out there. I was the exercise in passing!
 
I have only gone on the track through Pro6 and haven't had such issues yet. The seem pretty strict.


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That pass on the inside was a bit sketchy for me for a track day in a group where it's unexpected to be passed...never mind on so close on the inside.

Having said that, I agree with STR's approach.

I am one of the Ninja 300 racers and here is my point of view:

I did Monday and Tuesday track days last week. Since I had never been to the track before I was told I should be in green group. We were also told to only pass on the straights. But after a session or two I was having to park it in every corner to avoid running over most bikes out there. I tried to switch groups but was told I couldn't. Again, there is no way in hell I'm passing a 600 or 1000 on the straight on a 36HP bike. So I'm supposed to spend my $300 track day putting around. After asking again to change groups and again being told I can't it was suggested I make the passes around the outside. So the rest of the two days I passed tones of bikes and was much better. This was way safer than having to slam on the brakes to not plow into someone. Never divebombed anyone though. Made many of these passes right in front of marshals and was never an issue.

Next year I'll be in yellow for sure.
 
Having now watched the video....

@10:16 the "incident" as you guys are calling it? Yes its green group. But when you leave a country mile on the inside. And the guy following you is clearly carrying 20+kmh more corner speed than you are. Yeah, he passed you.

Stop being butt hurt about it.

It wasnt an unsafe pass at all.

That being said, if you hold a motorcycle race licence, you shouldnt be put in green group. But the problem with that is the closing speeds of a 200hp bike on a 36hp bike is stupid.

So as a TD Org, what do you do? Guy on the 300 was clearly a few seconds a lap faster, but still only does 186kmh on the backstraight where as any numpty on a liter bike can turn a throttle all the way...
 
Having now watched the video....

@10:16 the "incident" as you guys are calling it? Yes its green group. But when you leave a country mile on the inside. And the guy following you is clearly carrying 20+kmh more corner speed than you are. Yeah, he passed you.

Stop being butt hurt about it.

It wasnt an unsafe pass at all.

That being said, if you hold a motorcycle race licence, you shouldnt be put in green group. But the problem with that is the closing speeds of a 200hp bike on a 36hp bike is stupid.

So as a TD Org, what do you do? Guy on the 300 was clearly a few seconds a lap faster, but still only does 186kmh on the backstraight where as any numpty on a liter bike can turn a throttle all the way...

I was slowed up by 2 more in front. It's far from butt hurt. It's called this is not a ******* race and its green group. Good on you for passing noobs superstar


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Organizers desperately need to have a rethink. Maybe no green group before a race? Tell people there are racers mixed in with the group(s)?

Starting Wednesday there is no green group.

OP that pass was BS, I would have been mad if someone pulled that on me in a race never mind a trackday in green group. If the rider truly couldn't see you and was committed (which he seemed pretty committed to me) there wasn't much he could do. There's no way he could have slowed down to your corner speed, he was going a good 50-60km/h faster than you through there.
 
Starting Wednesday there is no green group.

OP that pass was BS, I would have been mad if someone pulled that on me in a race never mind a trackday in green group. If the rider truly couldn't see you and was committed (which he seemed pretty committed to me) there wasn't much he could do. There's no way he could have slowed down to your corner speed, he was going a good 50-60km/h faster than you through there.

Hit the nail on the head.

It looks like either 2 or 4, and you are full pin on there on the R3 (I think youre full pin on a big bike too) so to come over the rise and have a rider there (who isnt on line) there is no way to slow down, the best thing he could have done was exactly what transpired stayed tight and made the pass.
 
OP

Unfortunately you have had a bad experience.

I wish you could have gotten better advice beforehand. I would not encourage anyone to ride Mosport as their first track day. I would not encourage anyone to do their first track day anywhere without having a friend, guide, mentor or whatever to lead them, explain lines, braking points etc.

Yes his pass was wrong. But like others have said he had committed to it long before it happened. He was desperate to get by your group as my kid who was showing him the lines had passed you between T1 and T2. He was likely aiming to use his braking to get your group before T5 and he either misjudged or your group varied it's speed more than he had anticipated.

In the end he didn't mean to make that close of a pass. Like you he is a decent person. That said his choice did place you in danger and he should have come at the very least and offer an apology.

Mosport is tough as others have said. Closing speeds between different bikes is tough. So the littlest bikes get pushed down to green group. With faster riders on small bikes it means passing under brakes or in corners.

I do fault you however for letting your ego get the better of you and twisting your throttle to get back by them. You should have let the little bike go. Go back to your day and your learning experience.

Having had my kids do track days on everything from a cbr125 on up, nothing made them more frustrated than passing a slower lap rider who would just muscle past them on the straight again. When in the end they likely should have pulled up and tried to follow the little bike to learn lines and corner speed.

So please find a track day at Shannonville, TMP, or GB. Find someone to help you learn. I offer my help if it works out. I would gladly have put my leathers back on and gone back out all day in Green group to help others on Thursday but no one asked RC personnel for any help. I offered that to all my green riders in the morning after I took them around. As did both of my kids after they lead their groups.

By the way, neither the close pass or the crashed 300 were kids. They are far from being kids.


Enjoy the sport. It gets expensive.
 
Hit the nail on the head.

It looks like either 2 or 4, and you are full pin on there on the R3 (I think youre full pin on a big bike too) so to come over the rise and have a rider there (who isnt on line) there is no way to slow down, the best thing he could have done was exactly what transpired stayed tight and made the pass.

Its turn 4. You aren't flat out on a big bike but up the hill towards it you are (in 4th gear) and once your committed to that turn at full tilt there's not a lot you can do to avoid someone going significantly slower. In saying that, when you notice you're catching someone that isn't going fast through the turns you don't time it so that you're going to meet at the apex of a corner balls out. We have to judge that in practice when we're riding with 600's or during our Wednesday/Thursday "trackday" when riding with amateurs that are going 15-20s a lap slower, same thing.
 
Having now watched the video....

@10:16 the "incident" as you guys are calling it? Yes its green group. But when you leave a country mile on the inside. And the guy following you is clearly carrying 20+kmh more corner speed than you are. Yeah, he passed you.

Stop being butt hurt about it.

It wasnt an unsafe pass at all.

That being said, if you hold a motorcycle race licence, you shouldnt be put in green group. But the problem with that is the closing speeds of a 200hp bike on a 36hp bike is stupid.

So as a TD Org, what do you do? Guy on the 300 was clearly a few seconds a lap faster, but still only does 186kmh on the backstraight where as any numpty on a liter bike can turn a throttle all the way...
A country mile? WTF! His line would probably have clipped the apex if he didn't have to stand the bike up when the guy went past. After the bike passes you can't see any more pavement on the iside from that camera angle. I've seen wider lines than that in red group FFS.

You're also contradicting yourself. If the closing speed of a 200hp bike on a 36hp bike is stupid, then that's no reason for the slower bike to be in green group since as you say any numpty on a litre bike can turn a throttle all the way.

Get real.
 
I have now seen the video, too. Yes, it was an ugly pass, and I wouldn't be pleased if someone did that to me, either.

But. I would love to see this from the other rider's perspective. I've BEEN that rider who did an ugly pass like that. I had no intention of doing so, and I highly doubt that this rider intended it either, but that's how it went down.

Keep the following in mind:

The camera bike had just done a high 1:57. The rider in question did something like 1:41 on Sunday and although it's possible that he would have not been quite at that pace a couple days earlier, it likely wouldn't have been too far off. (By the way I love the on-screen track map and lap timer; I'm not that sophisticated)

The camera bike has about 120 - 130 horsepower. The R3 has about 40. We all know that. There's an obvious difference in straightaway speed and acceleration in favor of the camera bike. But with the R3 doing 16 seconds a lap faster ... that rider has an obvious cornering speed difference.

The camera bike had completed several corners in which the bike was several feet off the inside edge of the corner leaving a ton of room on the inside. The camera bike had just gone into the entrance of 4 well towards the outside edge of the corner (read: upcoming rider can not pass on the outside, no room to go there) and had then disappeared over the edge of the hill from the point of view of the R3 rider who is approaching fast with a much bigger difference in cornering speed. From that rider's point of view, since they cannot see what is actually happening in corner 4 itself, they can only predict what the rider in front is going to do by what they've seen in the seconds leading up to this and perhaps the previous few corners in which the bike in question was in view.

Now the R3 rider comes over the crest, has now committed their entrance speed and approximate cornering line ... and they are now coming up fast on a space that is quickly disappearing. At that point that rider would have had no choice but to aim for the remaining gap and hope for the best. Slamming on the brake while at full lean is not going to work out well and the resulting crash could easily take out both riders. Changing direction to go around the other side ... it's too late for that.

It was probably an error on the part of track day organizers to put anyone with a race license in the green group. It was probably also an error to not, somehow, accommodate a request to change groups.

Mosport is not a good track to learn how to function on a race track ... especially the days leading up to the national. The days leading up to VRRA may have been a better choice.

My own opinion is that nobody should do a track day until they've done a school; I have no idea if that applies to those involved in this situation or not. My own opinion is also that nobody should go in red group unless they either have a race license, or have had one in the past, or are known to the organizers as competent and fast riders.

At track day riders meetings it's often said that if someone is holding you up and you can't pass them, pull off the track and rejoin. Problem is, if you have a bike that is doing (let's say) similar lap times but in a very different style from the usual 600cc/1000cc modern sport bikes, it doesn't work. If you pull off and rejoin, the same thing happens with the next bunch of riders that you come up on. It's impossible to have a clean lap.

I stopped doing track days because of the somewhat similar scare that someone gave me ... and that was because of a slower rider in red group who (IMO) should not have been there.

VRRA has addressed this for their (large) practice groups. Everyone is assigned a practice group depending on category of bike (addresses the "difference in style" the best we can) and lap time based on that rider's known lap times. Only riders new to the organization with no lap time history whatsoever have to take a guess at it, and only for long enough until that rider's lap time becomes known ... then they get assigned. If the same logic had been applied here, pretending that these two bikes were Period 3 or 4 vintage bikes, the camera bike would have been in "slow" (1:48.10 and up) and the R3 would have been right on the cusp of being either "medium" (1:42.60 to 1:48.00) or "fast" (below 1:42.50). I'm right on that cusp, too, having done 1:42.6something.

There are still differences in cornering speed within each group but they're not so large, so you don't tend to have situations of coming up on someone enormously fast mid-corner.
 
This was not my first track day. It was my first time at Mosport and I was picking my speed up as my tires warmed up. The kid had no reason to come it that hot. He was on a mission and put it all on the line. He had no track. I gave him room and he could see that the corner was full. If you look after I let off the throttle you will see about 3 others in it. It was a douche bag move and there was no reason for it. He should be better at gauging his surroundings and realize that he almost ended his win that coming Sunday


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This was not my first track day. It was my first time at Mosport and I was picking my speed up as my tires warmed up. The kid had no reason to come it that hot. He was on a mission and put it all on the line. He had no track. I gave him room and he could see that the corner was full. If you look after I let off the throttle you will see about 3 others in it. It was a ****** bag move and there was no reason for it. He should be better at gauging his surroundings and realize that he almost ended his win that coming Sunday


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I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously you don't want to stop and reflect.

You aren't reading. So I will stop typing.

Good luck.
 
This is a good thread. Everyone should have learned something. Novice to racer to td provider. Two points I really like are:
Everyone should do a track school before doing a td. In hindsight this should be MANDATORY - and a rider should be able to prove it with a certificate. The other thing I like is the way the vrra groups its riders. I think they even have a flow chart to help determine what group you should ride in.

Lets be happy that there was no carnage resulting from green group riders and racers circulating together.
 
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I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously you don't want to stop and reflect.

You aren't reading. So I will stop typing.

Good luck.

Seriously.

OP,

T4 has seen some pretty gnarly crashes over the years due simply to unexpected speed differential.

I am 100% certain that the passing rider did not intend for the pass to be that tight. And as mentioned earlier they should have apologized (and for all we know he may have tried to find you but couldn't???).

Yes the pass was tight. Yes maybe the TD org could shuffle riders between groups to avoid this. Repeating yourself here isn't going to accomplish anything.
 
This is a good thread. Everyone should have learned something. Novice to racer. Two points I really like are:
Everyone should do a track school before doing a td. In hindsight this should be MANDATORY - and a rider should be able to prove it with a certificate. The other thing I like is the way the vrra groups its riders. I think they even have a flow chart to help determine what group you should ride in.

Lets be happy that there was no carnage resulting from green group riders and racers circulating together.

Don't kid yourself VRRA has/had its own issues, there was a big thread about it on the book of faces fresh after the 50th race at mosport race.
 
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