Hello Taxman! Toronto raising property tax by 10-16% | Page 4 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Hello Taxman! Toronto raising property tax by 10-16%

I don't think those guys deferred the inevitable, Toronto is just not that efficient. Every city has homeless, drug, and crime problems, most on a grander scale than Toronto. Every city has an infrastructure to manage, and facilities to maintain -- in theory if you can concentrate those you should be able to do things more efficiently.

Let's compare Markham and Toronto. Markham/York each collect and contribute to the cost of delivering services to the City of Markham. The combined cost was $4675/resident in 2023. Toronto, which is about 1/2 the area and 2.5x the population spends $5800 - that's a whopping 25% more per resident.

Do Torontonians get a whole lot more gov't services than the folks in Markham? Or does the Markham/York government act more responsibly when handling the public purse.

When Toronto procures a contractor for a construction project, the selected contractor must engage LiUNA members in the work. Approximately half of all City construction contracts are in the ICI sector, and the City tenders hundreds of million of dollars worth of contracts in this sector annually.

Example LiUNA starting wage:
WAGES VAC.PAY BENEFITS PENSION TOTALPKG.
Helper $ 31.41 $ 3.14 $ 5.77 $ 5.71 $ 46.03
Greaser $ 46.87 $ 4.68 $ 5.77 $ 8.12 $ 65.44

Having worked directly for both Toronto and Markham on the infrastructure side, I can say that Markham has to deal with a lot less aging infrastructure, and a density level that makes maintenance work much simpler. Both are far from perfect, but there's no significant difference in efficiency between one city and the other except for the fact that one's infrastructure is typically 100+ years older and 10x more difficult to repair. And the less said about York the better. That region is... let's say complicated. I certainly wouldn't hold it up as a beacon of efficiency and effective spending. Yes, Toronto has a lot of bureaucracy and paperwork, more than most. But some of that is there for a reason, as taking a lane to do work downtown has a much bigger impact than it does in a sleepy subdivision in Markham.

The TTC, on the other hand, is a total catastrophe of over-management and horrible efficiency. It pains me to say it, as they are still massively underfunded, but they're also their own worst enemy. Getting simple things done around their assets can be a Kafkaesque nightmare of looping bureaucracy, departments on top of departments, managers who refuse to make decisions without passing things on to another manager, and workers who spend years to finish work that should take weeks

As for LIUNA, you've cherry-picked some rates, but as an ex-contractor, I can tell you that most contractors big enough to bid municipal and provincial work are either unionised or are essentially paying union rates regardless. On the concrete side, the LIUNA rate for a labourer in the ICI market is significantly less than quoted, though heavy civil is much closer. That applies for the entire GTA, from Hamilton to Oshawa, and up to Barrie. Away from Toronto is much, much less. My last company fought tooth and nail to avoid unionisation, lost, and discovered it was the best thing that happened to them. Rates were broadly similar, and the union massively streamlined the HR process by providing clear rates and regulations. The burdens went up a bit, but by eliminating the existing company pension and benefits, the cost difference was minimal. Their biggest problem, similar to many contractors these days, was finding effective staffing to complete work. LIUNA didn't solve that problem entirely, but it did make it a lot easier.

Speaking of which, that's a huge factor in a lot of this cost escalation. Construction labour rates have jumped massively over the past 10 years, over 100% in a lot of cases. Finding people willing to swing a hammer or finish concrete on their knees all day is very difficult, let alone people who are good at it. Canadian city kids mostly think the work is beneath them, and are often over-educated. And immigration has been focused on professional people, so there's a lot fewer new faces there interested in the work or cut out for it. Lots of kids who think they should be boss after showing up for a week, or who can't figure out problem-solving to save their lives, or who think getting dirty is for others. All this means it costs more per person, and with way more people, to get less done than it did 10 or 20 years ago. Add significantly higher safety costs, along with lost efficiencies due to added requirements, and the cost per square foot to get anything done on a larger scale these days is massively higher. Other industries have been able to improve efficiencies with technology and automation, but the construction business has been extremely difficult to streamline that way. On top of all that, many material suppliers took advantage of the various crises over the past few years to jack prices to the moon, regardless of whether it was justified. In some sectors they all did it, and if anyone complained, they'd just shrug and blame inflation. Or covid. Or Russia. Or the Suez Canal. Or storms in Texas. All while counting their record profits...
 
For fear of being the second voice of dissent, 100% this.

Toronto has the second lowest property tax figures in Ontario. For decades governments & mayors too afraid to raise taxes at the amounts they should have been to run the city property, for fear of not getting reelected or not keeping the electorate happy, have undercut the budgets.

Now the chickens have finally come home to roost when there's a new mayor who realizes how ****** the city is and is willing to actually make those tough decisions.

These are five cities in southern Ontario with the lowest property tax rates:

  • Markham, 0.645017%
  • Toronto, 0.666274%
  • Richmond Hill, 0.670650%
  • Vaughan, 0.682784%
  • Milton, 0.703456%
And these are the five cities with the highest property tax rates:

  • Orangeville, 1.353041%
  • Oshawa, 1.325625%
  • Barrie, 1.254822%
  • Brock, 1.232517%
  • Clarington, 1.174555%
Toronto homeowners have been enjoying these low rates I'm sure, but it's like just charging stuff to your credit card for a decade or two, ignoring the statements coming in the mail every month and just paying the minimums, hoping the problem goes away when in reality the cards are maxxed out and the house of cards is about to fall.
Double land transfer tax conveniently left out of your calculation mate…
 
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Is Union Station paid for by Toronto or Ontario? Is it a waste to subsidize people coming into and leaving the city? Is there a way to monetize it?
 
Double land transfer tax conveniently left out of your calculation mate…
Double land transfer is tough to account for in yearly tax rates. For many people, that may occur once in their lifetime (or never in the case of many current owners that bought before it was instituted), for others climbing the ladder, they may take that hit every five years which substantially increases their effecrive tax rate.

In my mind, municipal LTT is like a special assessment at a condo, ok to have if things have gone wrong but your monthly fees should be setup so you never need the special assessment. That ensures that every owner pays their share of expenses during their ownership. Special assessments by design create winners and losers.
 
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Is Union Station paid for by Toronto or Ontario? Is it a waste to subsidize people coming into and leaving the city? Is there a way to monetize it?
Union station is a mixed bag because you have the TTC and METROLINX as major stakeholders.

As such…it’s primarily paid for by Infrastructure Ontario via MX for any renovation / upgrades. Maintenance and upkeep IIRC is for both depending on which area.
 
Double land transfer tax conveniently left out of your calculation mate…
I believe even with the double land transfer tax, the CoT property taxes are so much lower than the surrounding suburbs that it comes out ahead after X years. (Before this latest 10.6% hike coming up).
 
Union Station is interesting TTC , Metrolinx and Via rail all running through there . Tons of business operating inside renting space and it’s an historic site . They had a shooting range in there until about 15yrs ago . Cool place .


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I believe even with the double land transfer tax, the CoT property taxes are so much lower than the surrounding suburbs that it comes out ahead after X years. (Before this latest 10.6% hike coming up).

You're discounting that the surrounding municipalities will all be making high single digit tax increases as well. Trust me.
 
Double land transfer is tough to account for in yearly tax rates. For many people, that may occur once in their lifetime (or never in the case of many current owners that bought before it was instituted), for others climbing the ladder, they may take that hit every five years which substantially increases their effecrive tax rate.

In my mind, municipal LTT is like a special assessment at a condo, ok to have if things have gone wrong but your monthly fees should be setup so you never need the special assessment. That ensures that every owner pays their share of expenses during their ownership. Special assessments by design create winners and losers.

I'm all for raising property taxes if they remove the municipal land transfer tax. Considering that today's young person has to go from a one bedroom - > two bedroom -> townhouse/semi -> House that's like a quarter million $ in just land transfer taxes...
 
I'm all for raising property taxes if they remove the municipal land transfer tax. Considering that today's young person has to go from a one bedroom - > two bedroom -> townhouse/semi -> House that's like a quarter million $ in just land transfer taxes...
I agree. Proper tax rates eliminate the need for municipal ltt. Municipal ltt was just pandering to existing owners/voters at the expense of those with lower net worth. Keep hitting younger people and leave the old money to get richer and pay minimal property tax. Setting property tax rates to cover expenses (and ideally slashing expenses to avoid further rocketing housing costs) is the fair approach but the old money will be grumpy.
 
I agree. Proper tax rates eliminate the need for municipal ltt. Municipal ltt was just pandering to existing owners/voters at the expense of those with lower net worth. Keep hitting younger people and leave the old money to get richer and pay minimal property tax. Setting property tax rates to cover expenses (and ideally slashing expenses to avoid further rocketing housing costs) is the fair approach but the old money will be grumpy.
City Haul slashing expenses, you're funny.

Yesterday I had a chat with a friend who keeps in touch with a former secretary. She left his company and went to work at city haul. She didn't get a big raise but did get a book an inch and a half thick outlining her benefits, including retiring at 55.

Going into the job with private industry work ethics she got her daily workload done early. So they sent her more work that wan't getting done by the people that had no work ethics.

Then they started paying her overtime to do even more work that should have been done by the people that sometimes didn't even bother showing up.

Dear Ms. Chow. FIX YOUR OWN PROBLEMS FIRST. You have a hole in your pocket and you will continue to waste anything more we give you. Full time paychecks for part time work isn't right.
 
"Inflation. It happens." - Olivia Chow, January 2024.
 
Why doesn’t Chow just sell High Park?

The city gets a billion or two to spend up front.

There will be megatons of development fees.

There will be megatons of land transfer fees

There will be megatons of new property tax payments.

Park maintenance costs are eliminated.

In a few years the park will be useless to 99% of the population anyway so few complaints.
 
Why doesn’t Chow just sell High Park?

The city gets a billion or two to spend up front.

There will be megatons of development fees.

There will be megatons of land transfer fees

There will be megatons of new property tax payments.

Park maintenance costs are eliminated.

In a few years the park will be useless to 99% of the population anyway so few complaints.
Where will cyclists train?
 

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