Hello Taxman! Toronto raising property tax by 10-16% | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Hello Taxman! Toronto raising property tax by 10-16%

Condos are a whole other animal , mom’s condo needed the parking garage fixed ( don’t they all??) , unit assessment was 15k per unit , 5k every 4 months . You could not pay 15 in one shot. They wanted a blanket in case the last payment needed to be 8 or 9k .
Board gets a bid , it’s excessive but the board was on side , retired civil engineer in tbe buidling starts taking measurements and doing math , quote is for 30% more area than the garage consists of and low and behold , the bidder is related to the board chair. Much politicking ensues . Chair resigns , they save around a million bucks . Fix those problems and we can ALL pay less on every project .


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TK4 said:
Toronto has had a free ride for a very long time - you can thank politicians who for decades were too scared to try and keep up with surrounding municipalities. Not counting the 1.3% increase for inflation, the number I heard being bandied about was 9% - that means an above and beyond increase of 7.7%. I for one don't mind paying my fair share if it means better services and repairing municipal infrastructure.
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How so, they are different markets and population size etc etc. That's the same argument people use for environmental policies and gas prices. "Well the Europeans are doing this" so that justifies increased costs here?? I don't think so.

I'm ok to paying for my fair share, what that means is different for everyone. But giving more money to the gov, isn't ever from what I have seen going, to make much difference.
 
LePhillou said:
No matter how much we pay in taxes, sadly they don't cover more than 1/3rd of the costs in the budget usually when you look at different budgets
So without other subsidies from prov and fed govt that come also through things like gas tax, income tax, sales tax, etc the municipalities would just fall apart. Now add on that undertaxing at the municipal level for a city that has tons of service and tons of infrastructure to cover and you end up in the current situation.

We had a similar situation with our condo corp, 40 y old build, with an underground garage, they kept the condo fees ultra low for YEARS. My wife
joined the board and realized that we need to get the underground garage fixed, it was a 6 million ish project, reserve fund wasnt funded enough. They had to do increases, our condo fees have basically doubled in the time ive lived here. But until new blood was on the board, no one was willing to approve these increases. Had they done way smaller increases back in the day, we wouldnt be here but we waited until something was due to do it so we all "suffer"
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Municipalities and condos share a lot of similarities. In most situations, those early on pay far less than their share and those later are left to cover the funding gap. Condos are simpler and easier to understand. In your condo, the garage requires a $6M service every 40 years. Assuming 50 units, that is $250/unit/month. That is just one line item. Odds are that many owners that owned during the first 30 years paid only a small percentage of that bill. They used the asset but didn't pay for their use. Now the existing owners need to pay far more to cover that deficiency. As as added kicker, raising the condo fees (or having a special assessment), hurts the market value of the units. The original owners both didn't pay their fair share and artificially inflated the value of their units, subsequent owners get dinged on the monthly rate and the sale price.
 
sburns said:
How so, they are different markets and population size etc etc. That's the same argument people use for environmental policies and gas prices. "Well the Europeans are doing this" so that justifies increased costs here?? I don't think so.

I'm ok to paying for my fair share, what that means is different for everyone. But giving more money to the gov, isn't ever from what I have seen going, to make much difference.
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Remember Mike Harris, Mel Lastman, Rob Ford ? They're the ones who put off the inevitable - municipal taxes have to go up at least for the rate of inflation and services provided. You pay your fair share to get what you deserve - if you don't the only answers are loss of services or a bigger debt. Economics 101.
 
TK4 said:
Remember Mike Harris, Mel Lastman, Rob Ford ? They're the ones who put off the inevitable - municipal taxes have to go up at least for the rate of inflation and services provided. You pay your fair share to get what you deserve - if you don't the only answers are loss of services or a bigger debt. Economics 101.
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Unfortunately gov probably is the biggest factor for inflation. It's a vicious circle
 
They're now saying 16.5% increase this morning.
 
3% for Erin for 2024, Glad I moved (at least glad for 2024)...
 
Orangeville's increase was 4.5 %. My taxes are around $5100 for a 1600 sq ft home. 84% of our tax base is residential, 14% commercial and barely 2% industrial.
 
LePhillou said:
No matter how much we pay in taxes, sadly they don't cover more than 1/3rd of the costs in the budget usually when you look at different budgets
So without other subsidies from prov and fed govt that come also through things like gas tax, income tax, sales tax, etc the municipalities would just fall apart. Now add on that undertaxing at the municipal level for a city that has tons of service and tons of infrastructure to cover and you end up in the current situation.

We had a similar situation with our condo corp, 40 y old build, with an underground garage, they kept the condo fees ultra low for YEARS. My wife
joined the board and realized that we need to get the underground garage fixed, it was a 6 million ish project, reserve fund wasnt funded enough. They had to do increases, our condo fees have basically doubled in the time ive lived here. But until new blood was on the board, no one was willing to approve these increases. Had they done way smaller increases back in the day, we wouldnt be here but we waited until something was due to do it so we all "suffer"
Click to expand...
That wasn't the one just off Scarlet Road with ten 12 Volt batteries in series as their emergency lighting? The one that only fixed their garage ramp when the garbage truck fell through it? The lobby and public areas were kept nice though.

The kid showing me the works said it was an OK place to work if you didn't mind a different property manager every year. New one signs on and takes six months to tabulate what MUST be done and reports to the board.

The board labels them spendthrifts and kicks them out. Rinse repeat.

If anything goes wrong it wasn't negligence because "We were reviewing the situation."
 
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nobbie48 said:
That wasn't the one just off Scarlet Road with ten 12 Volt batteries in series as their emergency lighting? The one that only fixed their garage ramp when the garbage truck fell through it? The lobby and public areas were kept nice though.

The kid showing me the works said it was an OK place to work if you didn't mind a different property manager every year. New one signs on and takes six months to tabulate what MUST be done and reports to the board.

The board labels them spendthrifts and kicks them out. Rinse repeat.

If anything goes wrong it wasn't negligence because "We were reviewing the situation."
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Honestly i dont know how this system works. There are so many points of failure, you can have a $hit property manager, you can have a $hit condo board or you can have $hit residents who vote you off.

Just across the street we had a grandfathered condo board of basically "one" who didnt have property management so he paid himself. When he died (old age + health) his wife sold immediately and moved because, guess what?! He was embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars over the decades he was in charge. The accountant was in his "pocket" for the audits too.
It's kinda crazy if you ask me. But this is the system we have in place.

Basically tons of tiny governments with a bunch of possible corruption or points of failure.
 
LePhillou said:
Basically tons of tiny governments with a bunch of possible corruption or points of failure.
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Just like governments, almost unlimited money is available for optics (lobby renovations, new flooring, etc) but any fundamental issues that aren't easily visible don't get funded (as Nobbie put it, we aren't avoiding it, we are conducting studies to ensure we follow the right path).

Then you have buildings like ICE condos that are mostly rentals and the board can be overwhelmed by investors only interested in cashflow and profit. They know when to get out as the house of cards is preparing to collapse.

I won't be surprised if government sets a minimum standard for condo fees at some point. Something along the lines of a checklist with minimum monthly fees. Underground parking-$200/spot. Elevators-50/elevator, chiller-20,pool-20, etc. That sets the initial condo fee in the ballpark of something sustainable. Adjust the table regularly for inflation.
 
GreyGhost said:
Municipalities and condos share a lot of similarities. In most situations, those early on pay far less than their share and those later are left to cover the funding gap. Condos are simpler and easier to understand. In your condo, the garage requires a $6M service every 40 years. Assuming 50 units, that is $250/unit/month. That is just one line item. Odds are that many owners that owned during the first 30 years paid only a small percentage of that bill. They used the asset but didn't pay for their use. Now the existing owners need to pay far more to cover that deficiency. As as added kicker, raising the condo fees (or having a special assessment), hurts the market value of the units. The original owners both didn't pay their fair share and artificially inflated the value of their units, subsequent owners get dinged on the monthly rate and the sale price.
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Add to that, self appointed interior decorators that want to spend on keeping up appearances but ignore structural issues that become exponentially expensive to fix. Marble in the lobby vs water leaks.

Buildings with a high percentage of renters are the worst. The owners control the board but don't have to live with the squalor.

A telephone conversation from years ago:

New Property Manager: We need you test our ramp snow melting at La Dump on Dixon.

Me: I was there last year and only looked at the ramps. No testing was done as there were structural issues with lumps of concrete hanging by strands of mesh from the underside of the ramp. Has any remedial work been done?

P.M: No work has been done. When can you come?

Me: What would be the point? It can only be worse and you need an engineer's structural review.

P.M: How has it come to this?

Me: How much do you have in your reserve fund?

P.M: Nothing.

Me: That could explain it.

Three ramps at $150K each, possibly more and the piggy bank is empty.

Harris rewrote the condo act and these things were supposed to be covered. What happened?

A condo on Jane street needed millions in structural work but didn't have enough in their reserve fund to buy a 10 pack of Timbits.
 
matthew said:
Orangeville's increase was 4.5 %. My taxes are around $5100 for a 1600 sq ft home. 84% of our tax base is residential, 14% commercial and barely 2% industrial.
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Not too far off from my west Toronto abode, for now. A rider living in the big O said Orangeville kept taxes high to keep Toronto riffraff out. Port Dover I am told also has high taxes. I only compare lot size, house size and services when doing comparisons. Market value is of no consequence.

When you pay to park your car for the day the rate is the same for a Chevy and M-B.
 
LePhillou said:
Honestly i dont know how this system works. There are so many points of failure, you can have a $hit property manager, you can have a $hit condo board or you can have $hit residents who vote you off.

Just across the street we had a grandfathered condo board of basically "one" who didnt have property management so he paid himself. When he died (old age + health) his wife sold immediately and moved because, guess what?! He was embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars over the decades he was in charge. The accountant was in his "pocket" for the audits too.
It's kinda crazy if you ask me. But this is the system we have in place.

Basically tons of tiny governments with a bunch of possible corruption or points of failure.
Click to expand...
A well known PM uses her maiden name because she doesn't want people to know her hubby owns the company that gets a lot of their civil work.
 
GreyGhost said:
Just like governments, almost unlimited money is available for optics (lobby renovations, new flooring, etc) but any fundamental issues that aren't easily visible don't get funded (as Nobbie put it, we aren't avoiding it, we are conducting studies to ensure we follow the right path).

Then you have buildings like ICE condos that are mostly rentals and the board can be overwhelmed by investors only interested in cashflow and profit. They know when to get out as the house of cards is preparing to collapse.

I won't be surprised if government sets a minimum standard for condo fees at some point. Something along the lines of a checklist with minimum monthly fees. Underground parking-$200/spot. Elevators-50/elevator, chiller-20,pool-20, etc. That sets the initial condo fee in the ballpark of something sustainable. Adjust the table regularly for inflation.
Click to expand...
The last I looked at it an independent engineer was supposed to review the reserve fund study every five years.

Industrial Examples

Flat roof: Life expectancy 20 years, cost / Sq Ft divide by 20 years = X thousands per year to be set aside in reserve.

Parking lot: Similar calculations

Windows: We were told 20 year replacement but that wasn't realistic. They can last double and the odd fogged sealed unit would be done out of the general account. Cheap roll up doors were upgraded in stages.

Industrial properties are simple. Residential high rise is more complex due to elevators, underground parking, fire alarms, plumbing and electrical systems.

The system made sense if people didn't cheat or milk it.
 
crankcall said:
I find discussing services for your buck is different to everyone . My kids have moved on , I don’t need the arenas we have to rival maple leaf gardens . We have awesome acreage of soccer pitches I don’t use . But others do , and that’s ok. I’d like harbour improvement, more municipal pools . Maybe some public parking in Bronte . Our town council fight among themselves for what our constituents want ( supposedly) . But at least we got the mill rate / tax base right . We get a lot of developers money , but we pay a decent freight rate ourselves and don’t see double digit jumps .


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I think Oakville had a sizable jump - your interim is .683, and the 2024 final rate (if approved) goes to 0.760. That would be an 11.25% jump.

Your taxes are still very reasonable. A modest house in Markham, pays 20% more, in Burlington 35% more than it's comparable in Oakville.
 
Shaman said:
They're now saying 16.5% increase this morning.
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They'll roll it back to 15% and brag about how hard they worked to get it down.

It would be interesting to ask the long term councillors plus Chow what they were doing in years past when this monster was shedding its skin. Judas goats.

This reminds me of the "Don't pay for 2 years" furniture scam where it isn't hammered into people's heads you will pay double down the road.
 
nobbie48 said:
The last I looked at it an independent engineer was supposed to review the reserve fund study every five years.

Industrial Examples

Flat roof: Life expectancy 20 years, cost / Sq Ft divide by 20 years = X thousands per year to be set aside in reserve.

Parking lot: Similar calculations

Windows: We were told 20 year replacement but that wasn't realistic. They can last double and the odd fogged sealed unit would be done out of the general account. Cheap roll up doors were upgraded in stages.

Industrial properties are simple. Residential high rise is more complex due to elevators, underground parking, fire alarms, plumbing and electrical systems.

The system made sense if people didn't cheat or milk it.
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An independent engineer has to review but there is a game that can be played. Something along the lines of they need to include items needing attention in the next 20 years or so. If you mark the chiller and parking garage down for 40 year life expectancy, they get mentioned in the report but not included in the costing. The first 20 years of life are free in that example.
 
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