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Generators

SunnY S said:
When you get serious about Home stand by,

www.championpowerequipment.com

Home Standby Generators – Champion Power Equipment

A Champion home standby generator provides peace of mind, security and convenience for your family during an emergency by automatically powering the essentials or your entire home.
www.championpowerequipment.com www.championpowerequipment.com

Check out Champion Home Standby Generators, they are good for the price, and come with 10 year warranty on Parts. I'm a dealer for Champion, so of course I would push them. Having said that, we install more Generac 22.5k models, as the Champion's largest they offer is 14.4k. Nonetheless, the Generac cost more and only have 5 year warranty and 14.4kW is plenty enough for most peoples needs.

Consumer Reports highly rates the Champion and has noted it as a "Best Buy", we've also found they are less finicky then the Generacs as they don't have as many nanny's and safeguards in place and way more electronic wizardry that trips up the generator. The Champion is simply more basic and mechanical, but it just works. In one trailer park we installed a Champion in, he said the majority of residents had Generacs, and the service guy was a regular visitor there for problem service work.

At the end of the day, they are both good for different reasons, choose what's best for you.
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I have one of these 8500w and it runs my water pump and groundsource heat pump fine. As well as all the lights and fridge etc not sure why you would need bigger.

Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk
 
Scuba Steve said:
I have one of these 8500w and it runs my water pump and groundsource heat pump fine. As well as all the lights and fridge etc not sure why you would need bigger.

Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk
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8500 only gives you 30amps@240v, even less if you are running NG. Many house AC units require 30amps all by itself. 14.4kw gives you about 60 amps propane, (de-rate if NG), plenty of power for your AC, and all the other stuff you mentioned.

Some of my customers are elderly and/or infirm, and are extremely vulnerable without their AC, chairlifts, bed assists, elevators, furnace and other essentials, 14kW does the trick nicely.
 
SunnY S said:
8500 only gives you 30amps@240v, even less if you are running NG. most AC units require 30amps all by itself. 14.4kw gives you about 60 amps (propane, derate if NG), plenty of power for your AC, and all the other stuff you mentioned.

Some of my customers are elderly and/or infirm, and are extremely vulnerable without their AC and chairlifts, bed assists, elevators, furnace and other essentials, 14kW does the trick nicely.
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Mine is on propane probably putting out more than it should as it runs the 6ton heat pump for heat or ac no issue as well as all that other loads. The heat pump starts separate from the 1 HP water pump it may struggle to start both at the same time if it was trying. No issue so far has been on for 5 years now never blown the main in the transfer panel.

Sent from my moto g(8) plus using Tapatalk
 
ifiddles said:
@BKnight how much was the unit and how much was the install?...where did you put the unit?...did you need any special permits from your region?...how do you like the generator?
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You can get one for $700 -$900 that will do the job. I store it in my garden shed. The electrician installed an exterior plug on the house wall in the backyard. This goes to the main power panel and when power goes out you shut off the main at the panel and turn on the generator panel. I have a long cable that runs from the generator to the house plug and when I start the generator it feeds the power to the house. Electrician cost me around $600 with all the parts included so your total investment would be between $1300-$1500 area.
 
BKnight said:
You can get one for $700 -$900 that will do the job. I store it in my garden shed. The electrician installed an exterior plug on the house wall in the backyard. This goes to the main power panel and when power goes out you shut off the main at the panel and turn on the generator panel. I have a long cable that runs from the generator to the house plug and when I start the generator it feeds the power to the house. Electrician cost me around $600 with all the parts included so your total investment would be between $1300-$1500 area.
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I hope I misunderstand your system as it sounds risky. The two systems need an interlock that makes it impossible for both of them to be connected at the same time. While various make shift systems will work if there is a strict procedure, all it takes is someone else to unknowingly flick the wrong switch and someone down the line dies.
 
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English language problem.

There is a grey line between standby generator and emergency generator and too many people misuse the terms.

An emergency generator doesn't have to run the video system, air conditioner, pool heater, spa and backyard lighting.

One has to think about what is important. If there is someone in the home that needs a plug-in oxygen concentrator, CPAP or other medical device the power supplying those need to be top shelf, not a knock off bargain. That calls for an EMERGENCY generator.

The next level down is surviving cold weather so add the furnace to the load.

After that comes food preparation and storage, a stove, hot plate, fridge / freezer etc.

At some point the preservation of the structure becomes an issue, a flooded basement due to the sump pump being out of service.

One has to factor in the risk / tolerance for losses with the above. Everyone has a different situation.

If you're going with gas a bigger unit it will need more gas. Where do you store this liquid dynamite as the local gas station may be closed.

Oh and when you're driving around looking for gas, the traffic lights may be out and a lot of people don't know that they are to be treated like four way stops.
 
nobbie48 said:
I hope I misunderstand your system as it sounds risky. The two systems need an interlock that makes it impossible for both of them to be connected at the same time. While various make shift systems will work if there is a strict procedure, all it takes is someone else to unknowingly flick the wrong switch and someone down the line dies.
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It sounds perfectly clear to me, (if she hired a proper electrician), and it sounds like he installed a proper generator panel that has built in interlocks when you switch the breaker from house to generator.
 
nobbie48 said:
I hope I misunderstand your system as it sounds risky. The two systems need an interlock that makes it impossible for both of them to be connected at the same time. While various make shift systems will work if there is a strict procedure, all it takes is someone else to unknowingly flick the wrong switch and someone down the line dies.
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(y)

If the house has a big cord and plug on it like a travel trailer, I think you will be OK doing almost anything. Very difficult to certify a system that is powered by a portable or virtually unknown generator. How much do you fuse it for? If it had a 50 amp power plug :/ likely 50 amps, if you need more then that it's going to become more expensive. "Electrician cost me around $600 with all the parts included" is not a lot to work with when you start buying high power circuit breakers and thick copper wire by the foot. Whatever he has must have been safety inspected by now.
 
SunnY S said:
It sounds perfectly clear to me, (if she hired a proper electrician), and it sounds like he installed a proper generator panel that has built in interlocks when you switch the breaker from house to generator.
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Is the house plug male or female? If it's female it requires a widowmaker cord to do the connection. The legit interconnects I see use a double throw switch or contactor that ensures only one connection at a time.
 
nobbie48 said:
Is the house plug male or female? If it's female it requires a widowmaker cord to do the connection. The legit interconnects I see use a double throw switch or contactor that ensures only one connection at a time.
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I can't see a licensed electrician using a female socket on the wall. It is not worth losing your ticket to save a few buck on hardware.
 
GreyGhost said:
I can't see a licensed electrician using a female socket on the wall. It is not worth losing your ticket to save a few buck on hardware.
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Unless I misunderstand the whole thing a male receptacle would be needed to connect a portable genset to a house without a widowmaker cord (Male both ends). An exterior female with GFI would be a typical outside fitting. I don't know how a
GFI device would react to being an inlet instead of an outlet.

I don't hear of a transfer switch in the system and a transfer switch eliminates the possibility of the two sources ever meeting. A jury rigged system will work if used in the proper order with the system operator doing the proper steps but what happens when someone else tries the changeover and they don't know the idiosyncrasies?

An inspector has to think of the next owner or an uneducated user working the system. In other words, idiot proof.

I don't think a male receptacle is approved for things of this nature, more for appliances and electronics.

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nobbie48 said:
Unless I misunderstand the whole thing a male receptacle would be needed to connect a portable genset to a house without a widowmaker cord (Male both ends). An exterior female with GFI would be a typical outside fitting. I don't know how a
GFI device would react to being an inlet instead of an outlet.

I don't hear of a transfer switch in the system and a transfer switch eliminates the possibility of the two sources ever meeting. A jury rigged system will work if used in the proper order with the system operator doing the proper steps but what happens when someone else tries the changeover and they don't know the idiosyncrasies?

An inspector has to think of the next owner or an uneducated user working the system. In other words, idiot proof.

I don't think a male receptacle is approved for things of this nature, more for appliances and electronics.
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There are male inlet connectors available just for this purpose, 5-15, 5-20, L5-30, L6-30, L14-30 & L14-50 that I'm aware of. They're also often used on travel trailers now. (I have 5-20 and L5-30 on my trailers)
30 and 60 Amp panel boards are available with interlocked input breakers that are very handy for these installations. Pretty reasonably priced ($ 200 ~ $ 300)
There really isn't an excuse to not do it right.
 
nobbie48 said:
I don't hear of a transfer switch in the system and a transfer switch eliminates the possibility of the two sources ever meeting. A jury rigged system will work if used in the proper order with the system operator doing the proper steps but what happens when someone else tries the changeover and they don't know the idiosyncrasies?
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You don't need a "transfer switch" if you use a proper approved generator panel with the 2 main breakers interlocked. There is no "idiosyncrasies" Please stop talking. fire up the portable, and flick the main switch on the generator panel, and you are golden.


A portable generator along with a generator panel wired by a qualified electrician is perfectly suitable and safe.



No "real" electrician would rig up an end to end male connector. If he did, he is stupid, and you are stupid for hiring him.
 
SunnY S said:
You don't need a "transfer switch" if you use a proper approved generator panel with the 2 main breakers interlocked. There is no "idiosyncrasies" Please stop talking. fire up the portable, and flick the main switch on the generator panel, and you are golden.


A portable generator along with a generator panel wired by a qualified electrician is perfectly suitable and safe.



No "real" electrician would rig up an end to end male connector. If he did, he is stupid, and you are stupid for hiring him.
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Sorry there Sunny, you're 100% wrong again.
A transfer switch is REQUIRED, by law.
You NEED to isolate the neutral. Throwing the "main" on a panel doesn't disconnect the neutral. Not a problem in a one phase rural setting, could be a REAL problem in a urban setting. You will "back charge" the neutral if it is not isolated from the grid.

... and as I understand the circuit you can't use a GFCI. As soon as you charge the back side it will kick out
 
bitzz said:
Sorry there Sunny, you're 100% wrong again.
A transfer switch is REQUIRED, by law.
You NEED to isolate the neutral. Throwing the "main" on a panel doesn't disconnect the neutral. Not a problem in a one phase rural setting, could be a REAL problem in a urban setting. You will "back charge" the neutral if it is not isolated from the grid.

... and as I understand the circuit you can't use a GFCI. As soon as you charge the back side it will kick out
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There's no problem connecting a portable generator to an appliance but there are numerous nit picking details when the power has to enter a building. It's OK to run an extension cord through a gap in a window or door but cabtire can't be used for permanent installations, with rare exceptions. To feed a hard wired system with an extension cord is tricky.

To be honest, if I was freezing to death and could get my furnace going by collecting a line cord to the furnace I'd do it. Needless to say that would mean there is no connection to the main panel. Totally illegal but there's no chance of a problem upstream.
 
bitzz said:
Sorry there Sunny, you're 100% wrong again.
A transfer switch is REQUIRED, by law.
You NEED to isolate the neutral. Throwing the "main" on a panel doesn't disconnect the neutral. Not a problem in a one phase rural setting, could be a REAL problem in a urban setting. You will "back charge" the neutral if it is not isolated from the grid.

... and as I understand the circuit you can't use a GFCI. As soon as you charge the back side it will kick out
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100% wrong eh?

Do you read the your own links that you post???


6.2.2 Generator Transfer Panels Should a generator transfer switch not be used for disconnection, the customer may install a generator transfer panel. The approved generator transfer panel shall comply with the requirements of C22.2 No. 178.2. The transfer panel shall be clearly identified for standby use.

The transfer switch within the panel shall be either:


• An approved transfer switch described in Section 6.2.1,

OR

• Two independent approved switches, one for the normal source and one for the standby generator source, and equipped with a mechanical interlock mechanism to prevent simultaneous connection to both the normal and alternative supplies.

They are talking about this panel.... https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sq...with-18-spaces-36-circuits-maximum/1000722301
 
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The source is always female, that's what makes it an outlet or receptacle.
Your house neutral is the hydro ground, it's the other 2 wires that can kill you.
- 3 hot wires if you have a 3 phase AC or 550volt type appliances. for example a saw mill
using the 2 hot wires that come into your house in combination is what gives you 220volt AC to power air conditioning, water systems stoves and dryers. Using either feed in combination with your hydro ground is what gives you the 120volt AC for regular lights and outlets.

... if you plug your generator into the hydro electric grid, yes you will have a great big kaboom. You are suppose to ground your generator too, says so right in the owner manual ;)
 
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SunnY S said:
Do you read the your own links that you post???


6.2.2 Generator Transfer Panels Should a generator transfer switch not be used for disconnection, the customer may install a generator transfer panel. The approved generator transfer panel shall comply with the requirements of C22.2 No. 178.2. The transfer panel shall be clearly identified for standby use.

The transfer switch within the panel shall be either:


• An approved transfer switch described in Section 6.2.1,


OR


• Two independent approved switches, one for the normal source and one for the standby generator source, and equipped with a mechanical interlock mechanism to prevent simultaneous connection to both the normal and alternative supplies.




The Home Depot panel I linked above will suffice. and its a hell of a lot cheaper than a Transfer switch!
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So basically an approved transfer switch or a combination of switches that act like a transfer switch.
 
bitzz said:
Sorry there Sunny, you're 100% wrong again.
A transfer switch is REQUIRED, by law.
You NEED to isolate the neutral. Throwing the "main" on a panel doesn't disconnect the neutral. Not a problem in a one phase rural setting, could be a REAL problem in a urban setting. You will "back charge" the neutral if it is not isolated from the grid.

... and as I understand the circuit you can't use a GFCI. As soon as you charge the back side it will kick out
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This part from your link is interesting.
" For small single-phase services with the meter outside, the transfer switch shall be a 3-pole double throw switch for a grounded neutral generator and a 2-pole double throw switch for a “floating” neutral generator. "

At first glance, I would say that specifically does not require the neutral to the grid to be broken. With a two-pole switch, it can't affect the neutral.
 
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