Feds plan to melt ICE

[crankcall]

I think the Ameliasburg PEC ferry is still a cable ride . Wolf Island got a new one and I believe Amherst Island got a new one . For what that Amherst ferry costs to run , build an f’in bridge , or move all those people to the mainland and gift them 5 million each to move . Payback would be quicker than most imagine .


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[timtune]

I think the Ameliasburg PEC ferry is still a cable ride . Wolf Island got a new one and I believe Amherst Island got a new one . For what that Amherst ferry costs to run , build an f’in bridge , or move all those people to the mainland and gift them 5 million each to move . Payback would be quicker than most imagine .


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Had to get help from google maps. I thought you were referring to the Amherst ferry over to Bolo Island in the Detroit River.
(If you hustle you may still see some of the abandonned Bolo Island amusement park - went down and checked it out before COVID - it will soon be gone and replaced with mcmansions....)

 

[crankcall]

Sorry all eastern Ontario stuff .


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[GreyGhost]

I think the Ameliasburg PEC ferry is still a cable ride . Wolf Island got a new one and I believe Amherst Island got a new one . For what that Amherst ferry costs to run , build an f’in bridge , or move all those people to the mainland and gift them 5 million each to move . Payback would be quicker than most imagine .


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Wolfe Island and Amherst had new ferries delivered two years. Hybrid boondoggle at $100M. They were supposed to enter service early 2022. A trial run was done last year. No idea when they will actually enter service (or if they ever will).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewhig.com/news/two-years-on-kingston-area-islanders-continue-to-wait-for-new-ferries/wcm/7f2593d7-c9d8-4e64-a7e3-3e0b53e047d6/amp/

Wolfe Island residents frustrated with lack of progress on Wolfe Islander IV - Kingston | Globalnews.ca

Island resident Jac Pharand is frustrated with the Ontario Ministry of Transportation's communication about when the Wolfe Island IV will come into service.

www.google.com

 

[Mad Mike]

How much fuel does it take for a Torontonian to get his non polluting canoe to the Kawarthas and back, just so he can enjoy the clean air?

300 km round trip in an urban pickup is only 45l of gas.

 

[Shaman]

Instead of having a prop aimed straight backwards at the back of the ship and directing its thrust with a rudder, you can build the motor drive into a steerable prop assembly, and you can use multiple such units. I doubt if there's any efficiency benefit when crossing an ocean, but it would sure make maneuvering easier.

There's nothing really stopping you from doing this with an ICE motor. It would be more complex, however.

 

[Brian P]

There's nothing really stopping you from doing this with an ICE motor. It would be more complex, however.

Internal horizontal drive shaft the length of the ship (!) to a CVT gearbox of some sort at each one (the prop speed can be individually controlled on each prop to do it right) to 90-degree gear sets, to each drive unit with a vertical drive shaft to a 90-degree gear set at the prop, and steering it would require counteracting the torque in the vertical drive shaft. More complex is an understatement! And sealing would be a nightmare. And this mechanism would eat up a ton of space for all the mechanical components. Prone to mechanical failures (with multiple independent electric prop drives, a failure of a single one shouldn't be mission critical). Possible? Yes, but ...

My dad worked in a machine shop back in the days where there was a huge overhead shaft running the length of the shop, driven by a steam engine in a building at the far end, and a belt hanging down to provide drive to each machine. (WWII)

It ain't done that way any more, thankfully!

His career spanned the end of that era, to the beginning of today's multi-axis servo-drive CNC machines, and he was programming those at the end ... in the era when programs were stored on a punched tape reel, because modern networked computers weren't a thing yet. He retired just before that took over.

 

[Shaman]

Internal horizontal drive shaft the length of the ship (!) to a CVT gearbox of some sort at each one (the prop speed can be individually controlled on each prop to do it right) to 90-degree gear sets, to each drive unit with a vertical drive shaft to a 90-degree gear set at the prop, and steering it would require counteracting the torque in the vertical drive shaft. More complex is an understatement! And sealing would be a nightmare. And this mechanism would eat up a ton of space for all the mechanical components. Prone to mechanical failures (with multiple independent electric prop drives, a failure of a single one shouldn't be mission critical). Possible? Yes, but ...

I don't see why they couldn't run the thrusters off local motors, though. I mean, if there's a will, there's a way.

That said it's obvious why they are doing it in the era of electric motors that put out huge amounts of torque (and from rest). It's certainly much more practical and cost-effective compared to a mechanical version. I suspect that sealing the motors from water incursion is still a major concern but clearly these engineers are working on a high level.

There are some made-for-TV documentaries on navigating and steering the largest cruise ship to date (or was, I don't keep up with progress in the industry). As amazing as you'd expect, between high-resolution GPS and being able to use the electric motors almost like stepping motors to move the ship a short distance in any direction (without gearbox clash etc. you'd get with mechanical solutions), the ship can almost pilot itself. It's able to do things like hold the ship in position in rough water or move it directly sideways; even diagonally.

I can't help but tell everyone though... they are generating the power for those motors and every light, appliance; pump on the ship with crude oil. Don't think for a second these are anything like net-zero operations.

 

[nobbie48]

Personally, I use a solar panel and light multiple lights around my pool and rear yard with battery storage. Until the batteries die, they're quite pleasant and zero-maintenance. Are they carbon-neutral, though? Not a chance... made from plastic and whatever makes up the batteries... and quite unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But they are pleasant.

I was thinking of the dark sky thing. A lot of people like to sit out and see the stars, meteors etc. Then the guy across the lake wants it to look like a night baseball game.

 

[GreyGhost]

I was thinking of the dark sky thing. A lot of people like to sit out and see the stars, meteors etc. Then the guy across the lake wants it to look like a night baseball game.

The difference in darkness between my house and 15 minutes north is astounding. Most of our light pollution is Barrie. If you really want dark for the foreseeable future, you need to buy in one of the dark sky preserves.

 

[Shaman]

I was thinking of the dark sky thing. A lot of people like to sit out and see the stars, meteors etc. Then the guy across the lake wants it to look like a night baseball game.

Yeah. Fortunately I can walk out into my back 8 acres and there's a treeline between me and the houses. Very dark out there.

(my house @ top, everything behind the row of houses back is my property... a bit odd but works for me)

 

[crankcall]

First came Bow and Stern thrusters , huge fan props mounted perpendicular to the ship , they create immense drag and are very harmful to the marine environment in small quarters when manoeuvring . Next came the pods which were hydraulic drive , sealing was a non issue . They work well , smaller versions are electric drive but those motors need cooling and salt water is not so good so it’s a complicated setup . With a twin screw engine setup you can almost crabwalk a boat sideways , but that works well with smaller vessels . Wind load on the side of a cruise liner can be thousands of pounds of force . How a liner is configured will depend on where is will be deployed to some extent . My good friend is a cruise ship captain , currently doing the Antarctic trip from Argentina and back , that’s a two prop ship with a bow thruster .

FIL was the navigator for both Canadas aircraft carriers , no thrusters there , but you did transit places like Panama and Suez with a 4 boat convoy of tugs . You did not take a local pilot on board an active warship.

Our new to us boat will be Diverse 15kw E drive , carbon fiber leg , batteries will power small hydraulic pump for the forstay , backstay and vang. Two battery winches for hoisting , but the refit will in include an Onin generator set , so not done with diesel oil yet completely…..


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[PrivatePilot]

I can't help but tell everyone though... they are generating the power for those motors and every light, appliance; pump on the ship with crude oil.

Not necessarilly. Some are powered by gas turbines, RCI has 8 of them powered by turbines for that matter, used in places where ship exhaust is problematic like the inside passage in Alaska.. The brand new Icon of the Seas with RCI is powered by LNG.

 

[crankcall]

I watched a video of Icon of the Seas , it’s beyond nutty and impressive. I’m getting on that ship , oh , never . I’m a cruise guy and that ship is tooo much .


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[PrivatePilot]

Yeah I'm not interested either, it's so built around kids that it's just going to be constantly inundated with them.

Current favourite ships are the Oasis class.

 

[Mad Mike]

There's nothing really stopping you from doing this with an ICE motor. It would be more complex, however.

No really, it’s been done. Aziumuth propulsion isn’t new, you can mount hydraulic, electric or vertical shaft ICE motors to the drive.

 

[PrivatePilot]

No really, it’s been done. Aziumuth propulsion isn’t new, you can mount hydraulic, electric or vertical shaft ICE motors to the drive.

If it has a direct linkage to the power source (ie shafts and gearing) vs being electric inside the water side of the propulsion unit itself, I'm pretty sure they're referred to as Z-drive vs Azipod.

Zdrives have been around for quite a while now. Azipods were only introduced in the late 90's IIRC.

 

[Shaman]

Not necessarilly. Some are powered by gas turbines, RCI has 8 of them powered by turbines for that matter, used in places where ship exhaust is problematic like the inside passage in Alaska.. The brand new Icon of the Seas with RCI is powered by LNG.

Makes sense, I would guess in that arctic environment they'd have natural gas available and other such fuels. Also, you'd have some issues with crude or diesel in very low temperatures (though that's not so hard to deal with within the context of the ship).

 

[crankcall]

Diesel equipment works all over the arctic, fuel additives prevent gelling .


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[Shaman]

Diesel equipment works all over the arctic, fuel additives prevent gelling .

It's supposed to anyway, but two winters past, I had my truck slow down gradually and not want to run over 1500 rpm for some period of time when I went down into a valley one morning on my way to Ottawa @ -36C average. At the bottom of the valley west of Maberley it was -41C and not long after that, I started having issues with the truck. My trip through Perth was fun. Getting away from the stop lights is when I first noticed the issue. I couldn't get the engine to run more than 1800 RPM and it got worse from there as I continued.

I ended up missing my meeting, sitting, blipping the throttle to try and keep some kind of draw in the tank until after the better part of an hour, the ambient temperature was -28 and the truck started running up the tach slowly so that I could get moving again.

I asked about it and was told that the fuel should be good down to -48C. I'm here to tell you that wind speed + vehicle speed + ambient temperature of -40 makes that easy to reach. You see people in those areas blocking off radiator space and doing various other things to prevent fuel from gelling. I've never lived there so I've only heard about it.