Enough of COVID...what are you doing to the house?

[nobbie48]

So...electrical. Considering the poopshow that Kevin has made of the insulation, and possible electrical mess within the house, I'd like to pick the brain of the collective here.

I'm planning on starting insulation process for the entire house room by room. Send the wife and kids up to the cottage for a week, and then work to rip out the old drywall, frame, insulate, and re-drywall each room.

As part of that, I'd like to re-wire the house as well so that it's properly done once and for all. I am considering running conduits from the panel (in the garage) along the wall of the entire length of the side wall as each bedroom is on this wall.

Something like this...

View attachment 53025

There's block wall, and a walkway b/w the Garage and the +1 room.

Does it make sense to run conduit for each room separately? Or just wire from the panel to each individual bedroom?

@SunnY S or any other electricians, if you can comment I'd highly appreciate it.

To further screw your head around, are you making allowances for a potential addition?

Considering the potential of an addition, NOT getting a permit could cause you grief down the road.

I don't know what is happening with lighting loads. Our 30+ year old kitchen lighting could have drawn 1000 watts. Now that the bulbs have been replaced with LEDs the draw is next to nothing. There were guidelines for devices on a circuit.

Adding computer circuitry is interesting from my Luddite perspective. Maybe those 5G chips being implanted with the Covid vaccines today will make wiring obsolete when your kids need access. Seriously though, can anyone forecast communications even ten years ahead? Fax me your thoughts.

 

[nobbie48]

The panel is 100% legal and permitted. I was talking about it and deciding deciding.

Went to BC for 17 days and came back to a panel. Wife called my dad and they organized everything as a late 40th bday gift for me. She knew I wanted it so got it done while I was away. That’s when we realized we have 2 layers of drywall.

I’ve got the approvals and everything here.

EDIT: Do I even need an electrician to do this work? Or can I run the cables and as long as it passes inspection...should be good no?

I just looked at the ESA site, copied below: I've highlighted a few items, one being the occupant part. That part is open to abuse. If you get an electrician buddy to do the work under the counter, not through his LEC employer and say you did it, expect to be grilled on the installation. How many devices on the circuit, clip spacing, wire gauge, box capacity etc.

Who can do electrical work at my property?​

Electrical work is complicated and mistakes can be serious. If you hire someone to do electrical work in your home, by Ontario law, they must be a Licensed Electrical Contractor (see exceptions*). Licensed Electrical Contractors are trained in and understand the safety requirements associated with electrical installations.

General service providers cannot do electrical work in residences unless they hold an electrical contractor’s licence. If you hire a general contractor, confirm that a licensed subcontractor will do the electrical work. A Licensed Electrical Contractor must display their licence number. Ask to see it. You can find a Licensed Electrical Contractor or confirm that your contractor holds a valid licence at Contractor Locator | Search by Location

*Exceptions:

• Maintenance, service and repair work on equipment when done by an employer or agent of the equipment manufacturer;
• Work done within an industrial establishment or on a farm by an owner, operator or employee;
• Work on refrigeration and air conditioning units by qualified Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Mechanics;
• Work done on elevators and escalators by a person authorized by the Technical Standards and Safety Authority;
• Work on fire protection systems by qualified sprinkler and fire protection installers;
• Work on natural gas or propane appliances by an approved certificate holder; and
• Maintenance, service or repair on electrical equipment that plugs into an electrical source. This work must not include extending or altering the equipment or installing, extending, altering or repairing any electrical wiring connected to the equipment.

Electrical work can also be done in a home by the homeowner or occupant. (An occupant is someone living in a residence or using the premises, as a tenant or owner; or a person who takes possession of property that has no known owner.) If you choose to do the work yourself, be aware of the responsibilities and risks. Ensure the work is done according to the Ontario Electrical Safety Code and file all required notifications of work to ESA.

 

[GreyGhost]

Adding computer circuitry is interesting from my Luddite perspective. Maybe those 5G chips being implanted with the Covid vaccines today will make wiring obsolete when your kids need access. Seriously though, can anyone forecast communications even ten years ahead? Fax me your thoughts.

I would probably run some CAT6 to strategic locations (to avoid being a Kevin label the bleeping cables and make sure they are long enough to connect to a switch) and the conduit is for future unknowns. My house works better now that I have hooked up the hardwired networking. It connects various hubs (office, basement tv, cameras, WAP's, etc). It took a few days to track down where the bleeping wires were going and the wires in the garage were not long enough to reach a single switch. They also ran phone to many locations but thankfully that was also Cat 5E. Pain in the ass to figure out what was what but at least there is a redundant cable to each location. Not worth the cost imo.

 

[mimico_polak]

@nobbie48 that's def at top of mind. Last thing I need is an electrical permit issue. However, the addition includes rough in for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.

The literal first steps needed to proceed are the removal of the hot water tank with a high efficiency unit so that it removes one active stack in the chimney, and removal of the chimneys so the addition can be build without the structure there.

However, removing the chimney comes with the added complication of a support wall being there, which means that the main floor needs modifications, which means more $$$$$$.

It just keeps adding, and adding, and adding. And it's adding up at a faster rate than my LOC could ever keep up with! Especially with rising rates.

 

[nobbie48]

@nobbie48 that's def at top of mind. Last thing I need is an electrical permit issue. However, the addition includes rough in for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.

The literal first steps needed to proceed are the removal of the hot water tank with a high efficiency unit so that it removes one active stack in the chimney, and removal of the chimneys so the addition can be build without the structure there.

However, removing the chimney comes with the added complication of a support wall being there, which means that the main floor needs modifications, which means more $$$$$$.

It just keeps adding, and adding, and adding. And it's adding up at a faster rate than my LOC could ever keep up with! Especially with rising rates.

The 90 percent rule of additions. The first 90% of the job takes the first 90% of the money. The other 10% of the job takes the other 90% of the money.

 

[GreyGhost]

I just looked at the ESA site, copied below: I've highlighted a few items, one being the occupant part. That part is open to abuse. If you get an electrician buddy to do the work under the counter, not through his LEC employer and say you did it, expect to be grilled on the installation. How many devices on the circuit, clip spacing, wire gauge, box capacity etc.

Who can do electrical work at my property?​

Electrical work is complicated and mistakes can be serious. If you hire someone to do electrical work in your home, by Ontario law, they must be a Licensed Electrical Contractor (see exceptions*). Licensed Electrical Contractors are trained in and understand the safety requirements associated with electrical installations.

General service providers cannot do electrical work in residences unless they hold an electrical contractor’s licence. If you hire a general contractor, confirm that a licensed subcontractor will do the electrical work. A Licensed Electrical Contractor must display their licence number. Ask to see it. You can find a Licensed Electrical Contractor or confirm that your contractor holds a valid licence at Contractor Locator | Search by Location

*Exceptions:

• Maintenance, service and repair work on equipment when done by an employer or agent of the equipment manufacturer;
• Work done within an industrial establishment or on a farm by an owner, operator or employee;
• Work on refrigeration and air conditioning units by qualified Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Mechanics;
• Work done on elevators and escalators by a person authorized by the Technical Standards and Safety Authority;
• Work on fire protection systems by qualified sprinkler and fire protection installers;
• Work on natural gas or propane appliances by an approved certificate holder; and
• Maintenance, service or repair on electrical equipment that plugs into an electrical source. This work must not include extending or altering the equipment or installing, extending, altering or repairing any electrical wiring connected to the equipment.

Electrical work can also be done in a home by the homeowner or occupant. (An occupant is someone living in a residence or using the premises, as a tenant or owner; or a person who takes possession of property that has no known owner.) If you choose to do the work yourself, be aware of the responsibilities and risks. Ensure the work is done according to the Ontario Electrical Safety Code and file all required notifications of work to ESA.

Yup, technically his dad isn't allowed to help him. Dad can remove/install board but not touch the electrical. When I have done wiring in the past, I had an electrician buddy look things over prior to inspection to avoid nasty surprises. I passed the buddies inspection and the inspector. I only know tiny parts of the code that applied to the job at hand. It's long enough between jobs that I need to relearn each time to ensure I am complying with current code.

 

[GreyGhost]

@nobbie48 that's def at top of mind. Last thing I need is an electrical permit issue. However, the addition includes rough in for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.

The literal first steps needed to proceed are the removal of the hot water tank with a high efficiency unit so that it removes one active stack in the chimney, and removal of the chimneys so the addition can be build without the structure there.

However, removing the chimney comes with the added complication of a support wall being there, which means that the main floor needs modifications, which means more $$$$$$.

It just keeps adding, and adding, and adding. And it's adding up at a faster rate than my LOC could ever keep up with! Especially with rising rates.

High efficiency or power vent? Most tanked gas hot water heaters have similar efficiency. I'd say look at a heat pump hot water but that drives initial cost higher.

 

[nobbie48]

Yup, technically his dad isn't allowed to help him. Dad can remove/install board but not touch the electrical. When I have done wiring in the past, I had an electrician buddy look things over prior to inspection to avoid nasty surprises. I passed the buddies inspection and the inspector. I only know tiny parts of the code that applied to the job at hand. It's long enough between jobs that I need to relearn each time to ensure I am complying with current code.

I completely rewired my daughter's place a dozen years ago and pulled the permit. It was all knob and tube and at light fixtures the wire crumbled when bent. It was an interesting challenge to avoid destroying ornate plaster and woodwork.

I had an LEC I knew review the work before I called for inspection. He pointed out a few minor things that he said ESA would let me away with but nail him. The inspector was OK with everything, only double checking the location of a light in a closet. Exceeding spec doesn't hurt. I had an arc fault breaker for each bedroom but could have strung them together on one.

 

[mimico_polak]

I completely rewired my daughter's place a dozen years ago and pulled the permit. It was all knob and tube and at light fixtures the wire crumbled when bent. It was an interesting challenge to avoid destroying ornate plaster and woodwork.

I had an LEC I knew review the work before I called for inspection. He pointed out a few minor things that he said ESA would let me away with but nail him. The inspector was OK with everything, only double checking the location of a light in a closet. Exceeding spec doesn't hurt. I had an arc fault breaker for each bedroom but could have strung them together on one.

The cottage will require a complete re-wire. One plan was to take the LOC, do the work here, and use the balance to renovate / update the cottage.

That plan is now shot. Although I could just update the cottage and make it nice and livable for longer than a weekend at a time.

It's funny how we feel that each person needs their own bedroom. My neighbour has 2 boys and they live in the same room. The other bedroom is a play room.

Frankly I could forego the addition, let the kids live together for a few years, and wait for the MIL to decide to leave and go somewhere. Or she could live another 20-30 years (she's 60). She jokes that her life expectancy is 5 years after a heart attack...so 3 more to go

Bunk beds are cheaper than an addition.

 

[nobbie48]

The cottage will require a complete re-wire. One plan was to take the LOC, do the work here, and use the balance to renovate / update the cottage.

That plan is now shot. Although I could just update the cottage and make it nice and livable for longer than a weekend at a time.

It's funny how we feel that each person needs their own bedroom. My neighbour has 2 boys and they live in the same room. The other bedroom is a play room.

Frankly I could forego the addition, let the kids live together for a few years, and wait for the MIL to decide to leave and go somewhere. Or she could live another 20-30 years (she's 60). She jokes that her life expectancy is 5 years after a heart attack...so 3 more to go

Bunk beds are cheaper than an addition.

A friend with two sons moved into a two bedroom condo. He put in Murphy beds. They came from a four bedroom house and each kid had a bedroom large enough for all the normal furniture plus a sofa and toy / play space.

My daughter's place has a 20 X 30 footprint with the upstairs being under 600 SF, three bedrooms and a bathroom. The family before her raised five kids there. We all want space but does that make us more distant from and intolerant of our siblings and others later in life?

4000 SF for 4 people, heated pool, four cars in the driveway and the kids are protesting global warming.

I shared a bedroom with my brother until we started working after high school. We thought it was normal but that was before Beverly Hills 90210 and similar TV programs told us we should have our own bedrooms and BMW convertibles. As a symbol of humbleness they had to share the heated swimming pools and cabanas.

 

[mimico_polak]

Think I found the issue. It’s not a bent auger. It’s a bent ski. Will give it the old hammer treatment tomorrow.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Yup, technically his dad isn't allowed to help him. Dad can remove/install board but not touch the electrical. When I have done wiring in the past, I had an electrician buddy look things over prior to inspection to avoid nasty surprises. I passed the buddies inspection and the inspector. I only know tiny parts of the code that applied to the job at hand. It's long enough between jobs that I need to relearn each time to ensure I am complying with current code.

The job will really need two people.... pulling wires is a PITA otherwise.

Have someone look over the work prior to rough-in. A buddy (not an electrician but someone that knows enough about code) went over mine and found a few spots where I forgot to do something, mostly spots I stopped late at night and never went back to put that ground wire under that screw or staple etc. Minor things but worth the effort.

As noted just wrapping mine up (and have done others more than a few times), happy to provide input to anyone that wants it, including what to do for inspection etc. Also up to speed on new code...

 

[GreyGhost]

The job will really need two people.... pulling wires is a PITA otherwise.

Have someone look over the work prior to rough-in. A buddy (not an electrician but someone that knows enough about code) went over mine and found a few spots where I forgot to do something, mostly spots I stopped late at night and never went back to put that ground wire under that screw or staple etc. Minor things but worth the effort.

As noted just wrapping mine up (and have done others more than a few times), happy to provide input to anyone that wants it, including what to do for inspection etc. Also up to speed on new code...

I'm not saying he has to do it himself with no help, just if any questions arise, "I did it by myself". Assuming that he really was the primary and only had occasional help, that should pass the sniff test.

When I was younger I pulled wires through conduit by myself. I'm older now. I use my wife to help. I know the bundle has made it when I hear the shriek as the horse cock covered with lube ends up in her hands.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I'm not saying he has to do it himself with no help, just if any questions arise, "I did it by myself". Assuming that he really was the primary and only had occasional help, that should pass the sniff test.

When I was younger I pulled wires through conduit by myself. I'm older now. I use my wife to help. I know the bundle has made it when I hear the shriek as the horse cock covered with lube ends up in her hands.

"Wife" helped him, that is the story. She does not need to be there during inspection....

Mine helped here or there, but If mine actually did for all of it we would be divorced by now! True story, I drilled up from the basement "into the wall" she said, I see the bit. I then fished up the wire and she kept yelling down how do we get it to the switch.... I came up and I had drilled through the baseboard and fished the wire through that hole.... she did not see the problem... luckily that was the only time that happened.


A tip, use a small bit, drill a small hole in the floor beside the molding or if doing the attic the ceiling beside the wall where you are going. Shove a length of white or bare wire through the small hole and you will see exactly where you are going, measure a few inches away and drill into the wall cavity. The finder hole can be easily filled with wood filler, dowel, plaster.... Just make sure you have your directions straight....

 

[Lyndsay]

"Wife" helped him, that is the story. She does not need to be there during inspection....

Mine helped here or there, but If mine actually did for all of it we would be divorced by now! True story, I drilled up from the basement "into the wall" she said, I see the bit. I then fished up the wire and she kept yelling down how do we get it to the switch.... I came up and I had drilled through the baseboard and fished the wire through that hole.... she did not see the problem... luckily that was the only time that happened.

I did something similar, but ended up in the drywall. I was "how is this floor and plate so thick?". I built it and I should be into air by now. Stopped and went upstairs to see a little bulge in the drywall.

Regarding MPs wiring. I did mine differently, but I did have a green field. I ran three circuits to each room, and continued them into the other rooms, rather than three (or 4 in your case), one to each room, so that if something happens you still have 2 other live circuits in the room to use. Probably used some extra wire, but worth it for me.

Regarding inspections, if you're running that number of circuits, you don't need to worry about counting outlets and lights to keep to code, you've got lots of capacity, unless the rooms are massive and need 10 outlets.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Code is/was based on 1 amp "average" per "outlet" and a slash breaker load (80% of rating for continuous). That is how they get 12 outlets max on a 15 amp circuit (15 X 80%), they say 12 but that is how they got there. Latest, latest will allow more if the breaker is straight and not slash, good luck finding anything 120v and straight in residential breakers though. If it is lighting you can use the max rating of the fixture to exceed 12 on a lighting circuit as LED typically draws less than 1 amp per fixture.

I handed the inspector this as he came in the house, the number of devices was not discussed after that.... it is as built I just kept a mental count as I was doing the work. Answer questions before they are asked.

 

[backmarkerducati]

 

[mimico_polak]

@backmarkerducati I believe it's you that showed us a pic of a beautifully laid out electric panel branching out into the house.

I remember that being very well organized.

I'm super glad that I ran that 60A line to the laundry room before buttoning up the garage. But in hindsight, I couldn't taken some more time, and ran conduits just to each room before buttoning it up, so that I won't have to rip out drywall again.

 

[GreyGhost]

@backmarkerducati I believe it's you that showed us a pic of a beautifully laid out electric panel branching out into the house.

I remember that being very well organized.

I'm super glad that I ran that 60A line to the laundry room before buttoning up the garage. But in hindsight, I couldn't taken some more time, and ran conduits just to each room before buttoning it up, so that I won't have to rip out drywall again.

Unless you left a lot pull elbows, you may not be impressed by the conduit. All it takes is one planning/installation oversight in the conduit and pulling wire can be a nightmare (also I'm not sure about acceptable power conduit inside a dwelling).

 

[mimico_polak]

Unless you left a lot pull elbows, you may not be impressed by the conduit. All it takes is one planning/installation oversight in the conduit and pulling wire can be a nightmare (also I'm not sure about acceptable power conduit inside a dwelling).

If I had the foresight to just run conduits from the garage to the attic at the very least, that would really help out with the wiring, and be a much less destructive method.

The way my current walls are there is a weird foam insulation, so there's zero way to run cables without literally pulling out the entire wall and re-framing it, insulating it, and re-drywalling it. I only want to have a clean shot to each room. Inside the rooms is an easy path.

But if I'm going to re-wire this place, there will be some wireless access points placed around the house. We have a few slow spots in the wifi and the mesh system from Rogers really helps out, but wireless access points may make it much easier.