I reshingled for ~$20k, called insurance as they said that would help my rate, was on the phone for close to an hour and yearly decrease was <$50. Probably.worth the phone call but definitely not worth doing the job earlier than required.
Enough of COVID...what are you doing to the house?
- Thread starter mimico_polak
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Like many things , at some point they may insist you do it or they may not insure you . Like buying a home with urea insulation or KiTec plumbing , and knob and tube wire . Even homes with aluminum wire are having insurance questions . They don’t like the risk ( on anything)
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I don't think it would be a huge issue. I'll ask a RE agent that only does condos.
If it becomes an issue at that time, do it.
Putting in a 1000 bucks for no reason is tough to swallow, but it's nothing when you are talking about cashing out a property.
It's a 2-3 hour job if you don't need hydro to come by. Just need the inspector lined up to get the timing right so you are not paying the electrician to sit around.
The one big catch is most (all?) condos will require this work to be done by a licensed trade so you WILL be paying for labour. If it was a private residence you can legally do it yourself with an ESA notification (aka permit).
For a new panel, if the stars align (length and location of the feed works in a new panel, conduit locations, etc.) and they (insurance) is good with a 60A panel (no service upgrade just a switch to a modern breaker panel) you can (still) pick up a 60 amp main panel for ~$140+. Since you are replacing the panel ESA may likely require CAFI (AFCI) breakers for most 120v circuits at $90 to $120 each (newer code and these drive up the costs a lot), count the number of 120V fuses and multiply... Add the split duplex GFCI breakers for kitchen... Materials, lets call it $1500+ if fancy breakers are required. Then add labour which will be the killer IMO. Fix drywall, and done.
They make CAFI outlets (much cheaper) and if they can find the first one on each circuit they can protect downstream from there but that can be tricky in an existing condo as they tended to wire ceiling lights first. No split-duplex GFCI outlets AFAIK, so breaker here. Maybe ESA says modern breakers are not required for this type of retrofit, one has to double check????
Upgrading to 100A inside a condo may be a cost nightmare...
As for the dangers of the existing fuse panel. IME corrosion will be a risk. The fuse holders corrode over the decades and create a high resistance points in the panel. This is typically the biggest concern with the stove in your case (high current). The panel can catch on fire (I have seen this multiple times). If you are lucky the high heat causes the fuse to keep tripping first (they work on heat) but this is not always the case. Now multiply this by hacks like pennies to fix this issue. Mitigating your risk, shut down the power, pull the fuses, inspect and carefully clean the fuse holders IF required. Insurance won't care you did this but if it saves a future fire claim you still win...
BTW this IS a typical OLD house (or in this case condo) problem...
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Edit, corrected by @oioioi CAFI/AFCI is not required during a panel replacement. That will save a lot of money!
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As it's not his primary residence, it is before tax money too. Not a huge difference but does reduce the effective cost somewhat.
If it impacts the buyers ability to get insurance it can be a problem, as they cannot close financing without insurance (smart buyer or agent will know, dummies may fail to close if it is an issue). Today aluminum and K&T are examples where many insurance companies (some still do for both BTW) won't touch them and buyers may be faced with remediating the issue within 30 days of closing. That turns off most buyers. BTW, I have not heard much noise about refusal for fuse panels in this context but as noted in my long winded post they can be a risk so it may get tighter in the future?? or even now? These days insurance is uber vigilant on mitigating risk...
When we bought 16 years ago we made the offer conditional on insurance (K&T), we failed to get it on our own, the listing agent got us hooked up. Our insurance company gives zero ****s about the wiring (all redone now, they still don't care), but they ain't cheap.
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This is very dependent on insurance in my experience.
Our current insurer didn't care that the aluminum wiring was prevalent in our townhouse, because 'the structure is insured by the condo, but if you were buying a free standing home...30% bump in premiums until an electrician confirms aluminum has been replaced'.
Friends of ours bought a semi-detached with all aluminum wiring. Their insurer didn't even ask about it. So friends didn't bring it up because 'why open a can of worms'.
Lots of factors.
I agree 100%. But this is the type of friend that doesn’t worry about the future as it always somehow works itself out.
always broke …lets buy a new car.
Always broke … I deserve that 10k vacation
Always broke … I need XYZ because I want it
1M in debt. Multiple investment properties in both Canada and Europe.
Life just works out for them.
AFCI breakers or CAFI are only required on any NEW receptacles being installed.
When changing out just the panel from fuse to breaker or a service upgrade 60A to 100A or 200A the AFCI breakers do not apply to any existing receptacles.
Panel insert for fuse to breaker in a condo should probably be $1500. However YMMV
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Our house was built in 1960 and had a 100 amp fuse panel with 8 plug spots and 4 cartridges. It was replaced 35 or so years ago to a whopping 24 breaker panel that got eaten up with a kitchen renovation. Of the 24 breakers 20 are single phase 15 amps.
If I read it right those would have to be AFCI type now at $100 more each so an extra $2,000. Are the regular breakers that big a safety risk?
Personally, I have no problem with quality properly selected fuses with copper bus bars. Aluminum bars, not so much.
The demands to make everything 100% safe is driving up costs and eliminating the Darwin effect.
How many of these safety devices are being lobbied into law to push up sales numbers. Maybe just let the herd cull itself.
Some of the demands are arguably counter productive.
I am going with mostly lobbying, very minimal safety. Afci keeps you safe by having many of your circuits always tripped. There are many things you plug in that by design have an arc with no danger. They expanded from bedrooms only to everything in only a few years. Super profitable parts. By definition you are locked into an ecosystem unless you do a panel swap. Price on replacement breakers can easily climb to hundreds each and most people would suck it up as it's still much cheaper than replacing with another brand that will follow the same path.
This weekend's job was to install a handrail for the bathtub. I felt a nautical theme would look better than what Home Depot had so I was off to Holland Marine for a pair of deck hardware brackets and to my metal supplier for a few feet of stainless tubing. A piece of scrap stainless from my stash was turned into finials.
The PITA was trying to find a few 8-32 stainless set screws. Home Depot, Rona, Canadian Tire all truck out. I went to Fogh's in Port Credit to find them closed as they were at the boat show. Holland didn't have small sizes. I made do with cut down machine screws.
Another box ticked.
The PITA was trying to find a few 8-32 stainless set screws. Home Depot, Rona, Canadian Tire all truck out. I went to Fogh's in Port Credit to find them closed as they were at the boat show. Holland didn't have small sizes. I made do with cut down machine screws.
Another box ticked.
Now I want to see the final product... Pics or it didn't happen.
Thanks for the clarification, you are correct CAFI/AFCI are not required when it is only a panel upgrade (not a full rewire).
There is a lot of disagreement/conspiracy/blackmagic in the electrical industry on the benefit (or not) of arc fault.
Much of it comes from nuisance trips. A lot of that IME is a craft issue with people backstabbing outlets, these connections eventually become loose and you get random trips. This is the spring loaded backstabbing on cheap outlets not screwdown back entry. Tight under screws solves most of this. BUT some tradespeople would rather complain than do it better.
The only nuisance trip I get at home is an old hair dryer and it is only a few times per year with everyday use, likely dirty brushes/commutator. it is due for replacement. At home I did have a constant trip on another line day one and it was a bad cable, internal leak from neutral to ground (bugger to find), a regular breaker would not have tripped (so arc fault did its job). My 120v welder, no trips. My old brushed tools including, mower, tablesaw, ancient drills, etc., no trips.
Outside of my own house helping people troubleshoot, it turns out there is always a reason (but hard to find), but too many tradesman just swap breakers to non arc and call it a day.
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Here is one for a win IMO. Our boiler will burn up a thermocouple once per year or two on the better ones and every six months for a cheap one (better ones in this context are $11). I keep a spare but in some recent organizational fails I had no idea where it was.
I was painting a radiator yesturday. Looking for a scuffing pad I found the spare in a box and put it back by the boiler. Later when I went to turn the heat up the boiler was actually out, the old thermocouple failed! Easy swap and no need to go get one, the house didn't even get cold. (I usually notice in the morning after a night of no heat on a cold night).
I was painting a radiator yesturday. Looking for a scuffing pad I found the spare in a box and put it back by the boiler. Later when I went to turn the heat up the boiler was actually out, the old thermocouple failed! Easy swap and no need to go get one, the house didn't even get cold. (I usually notice in the morning after a night of no heat on a cold night).
A Wheatstone bridge is handy for locating ground faults. Invented by a guy named Christie and improved by Wheatstone in the mid 1800's, they still work today. In a pinch, a voltmeter and battery can do the same thing if you know math.
