Elephant in the Covid room

[jc100]

In academia is such a misstep grounds for pulling tenure or does your ability to bring in money trump ethics?

Funny you should bring that up...it’s actually the opposite that can happen...I think a UofT prof was removed from a position after they published bad trials results, the company involved was a big sponsor of the school.

Then there’s this too...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/clinical-trial-results-not-published-1.3865785

Edit: as for your question...yes, it should be grounds for punishment. I don’t know if it frequently is punished though. One of the things you should look for in a paper is “sponsor bias”. You can only do that if the sponsor is disclosed though.

 

[ToSlow]

Funny thing is the media reported another AZ related death in Ontario again this morning

 

[Brian P]

Not funny at all, especially to those directly involved.

I crunch numbers. (Risk analysis is part of my day job!) Earlier it was looking like dying from AZ vaccination was about one in a million chance. Now that there is more information, it might be two in a million. In this province, there is still a roughly two in a million chance of dying of covid19 each and every day if you are not vaccinated. It might actually be higher than that, given that we're getting roughly two deaths per day per million residents despite a third of us being vaccinated.

So it still works out about the same. If there is a choice between getting AZ today and getting some other hypothetical zero-side-effect-risk vaccine tomorrow, those are roughly equal risks. If you can get AZ today and it's going to take longer than a day to get something else, take the AZ today. The only clarification is perhaps that if you had a vial of AZ and a vial of Pfizer/Moderna sitting on the desk in front of you and you are free to pick, pick Pfizer or Moderna. Otherwise, AZ today is better than Pfizer/Moderna after tomorrow.

 

[ToSlow]

Not funny at all, especially to those directly involved

Kinda sick way of thinking if you’re saying that I’m setting and laughing cause someone died.

My point is how the media just streams on about it.
But i think you knew that but wanted to get in a little jab

 

[GreyGhost]

Not funny at all, especially to those directly involved.

I crunch numbers. (Risk analysis is part of my day job!) Earlier it was looking like dying from AZ vaccination was about one in a million chance. Now that there is more information, it might be two in a million. In this province, there is still a roughly two in a million chance of dying of covid19 each and every day if you are not vaccinated. It might actually be higher than that, given that we're getting roughly two deaths per day per million residents despite a third of us being vaccinated.

So it still works out about the same. If there is a choice between getting AZ today and getting some other hypothetical zero-side-effect-risk vaccine tomorrow, those are roughly equal risks. If you can get AZ today and it's going to take longer than a day to get something else, take the AZ today. The only clarification is perhaps that if you had a vial of AZ and a vial of Pfizer/Moderna sitting on the desk in front of you and you are free to pick, pick Pfizer or Moderna. Otherwise, AZ today is better than Pfizer/Moderna after tomorrow.

Have you found anything about the two different AZ vaccines? Your logic still holds but I am surprised that there is so little light being shone on two vaccines with the same colloquial name and rate of side effects an order of magnitude different.

I was not remotely in fear of dying but last night was bleeping miserable. Uncontrolled shaking, sweating, aches etc. started about 10 hours after AZ (non-india) vaccine. Fits with the list of standard symptoms so not surprised but it wasn't fun. Still feeling a bit like crap today but the worst of it is over.

 

[Brian P]

I've heard rumors and speculation that there may be some sort of distinction between different sources of AstraZeneca, nothing more.

 

[GreyGhost]

I've heard rumors and speculation that there may be some sort of distinction between different sources of AstraZeneca, nothing more.

Ontario tracks them separately on their aefi forms. Indian version is called Covishield, non-Indian version is AstraZenaca. We have had hundreds of thousands of each administered in Ontario. I havent found if they are supposedly identical formulations or not.

 

[ToSlow]

Looks like a long row to hoe

how many covid shots given in canada - Google Search

 

[Dimitri]

The only clarification is perhaps that if you had a vial of AZ and a vial of Pfizer/Moderna sitting on the desk in front of you and you are free to pick, pick Pfizer or Moderna. Otherwise, AZ today is better than Pfizer/Moderna after tomorrow.

I wouldn't get Pfizer if it was the only option. So far they've paid $4 billion in fines in 20 years for kickbacks to doctors and off label uses of their drugs. Not including their botched trial in Nigeria for the meningitis fiasco.

Their COVID vaccine is likely going to end up being at the center of another fine once the dust settles...

Unlike AZ which had everyone tested weekly for COVID, Pfizer's trial seemed to ignore people getting symptoms and didn't seem to stress people need to get tested if they get symptoms.

Peter Doshi: Pfizer and Moderna’s “95% effective” vaccines—we need more details and the raw data - The BMJ

On 5 February 2021 we published a clarification to this piece. It is available here. Five weeks ago, when I raised questions about the results of Pfizer’s and Moderna’s covid-19 [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

According to FDA’s report on Pfizer’s vaccine, there were “3410 total cases of suspected, but unconfirmed covid-19 in the overall study population, 1594 occurred in the vaccine group vs. 1816 in the placebo group."

Even after removing cases occurring within 7 days of vaccination (409 on Pfizer’s vaccine vs. 287 on placebo), which should include the majority of symptoms due to short-term vaccine reactogenicity, vaccine efficacy remains low: 29%

Nor does their manufacturing seem to be up to par...

The EMA covid-19 data leak, and what it tells us about mRNA instability

Leaked documents show that some early commercial batches of Pfizer-BioNTech’s covid-19 vaccine had lower than expected levels of intact mRNA, prompting wider questions about how to assess this novel vaccine platform, writes Serena Tinari As it conducted its analysis of the Pfizer-BioNTech...

www.bmj.com

The email identified “a significant difference in % RNA integrity/truncated species” between the clinical batches and proposed commercial batches—from around 78% to 55%. The root cause was unknown and the impact of this loss of RNA integrity on safety and efficacy of the vaccine was “yet to be defined,” the email said.

 

[ToSlow]

Another person died today in NB from blood clots. Saying it showed up after a wk of getting the jab

New Brunswick reports its first death due to blood clotting from AstraZeneca vaccine

New Brunswick health officials are reporting a person in the province has died due to blood clotting from the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, but are still recommending its use.

atlantic.ctvnews.ca

 

[jc100]

I wouldn't get Pfizer if it was the only option. So far they've paid $4 billion in fines in 20 years for kickbacks to doctors and off label uses of their drugs. Not including their botched trial in Nigeria for the meningitis fiasco.

Their COVID vaccine is likely going to end up being at the center of another fine once the dust settles...

Unlike AZ which had everyone tested weekly for COVID, Pfizer's trial seemed to ignore people getting symptoms and didn't seem to stress people need to get tested if they get symptoms.

Peter Doshi: Pfizer and Moderna’s “95% effective” vaccines—we need more details and the raw data - The BMJ

On 5 February 2021 we published a clarification to this piece. It is available here. Five weeks ago, when I raised questions about the results of Pfizer’s and Moderna’s covid-19 [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

Nor does their manufacturing seem to be up to par...

The EMA covid-19 data leak, and what it tells us about mRNA instability

Leaked documents show that some early commercial batches of Pfizer-BioNTech’s covid-19 vaccine had lower than expected levels of intact mRNA, prompting wider questions about how to assess this novel vaccine platform, writes Serena Tinari As it conducted its analysis of the Pfizer-BioNTech...

www.bmj.com

Everybody in the business did kick backs to doctors and off label use is rampant everywhere. Years ago when I worked for a few doctors we had a ball at the best restaurants etc. Medical conferences in the US were great. The Canadian doctors couldn’t take gifts from them as there were ethical restraints but I wasn’t a med so....armfuls of merch were brought back.

 

[GreyGhost]

Everybody in the business did kick backs to doctors and off label use is rampant everywhere. Years ago when I worked for a few doctors we had a ball at the best restaurants etc. Medical conferences in the US were great. The Canadian doctors couldn’t take gifts from them as there were ethical restraints but I wasn’t a med so....armfuls of merch were brought back.

Off-label can be beneficial. People imply that it is always harmful. Afaik, the best medicine to minimize your chance of altitude sickness is still Viagra.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Off-label can be beneficial. People imply that it is always harmful. Afaik, the best medicine to minimize your chance of altitude sickness is still Viagra.

Yeah, but now the airlines have to keep a better eye on the bathrooms for two people going into one....

 

[Brian P]

Vaccination status, information source Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research

As of right now, for "at least one dose", USA 44.11% (up 0.14% since yesterday), Canada 34.22% (up 0.58% since yesterday). We are now less than 10% behind the USA by this metric.

USA 44.22% (+0.11%), Canada 34.79% (+0.57%). We are 9.43% behind, caught up by 0.46% yesterday. Catch-up date at current trends, 25th May.

 

[ToSlow]

USA 44.22% (+0.11%), Canada 34.79% (+0.57%). We are 9.43% behind, caught up by 0.46% yesterday. Catch-up date at current trends, 25th May.

That is not how i would measure the success of the covid vaccine numbers, i look at how many have the shot to the overall population. And by those numbers they are millions ahead of Canada.

If we had thie number of shots given by that, we would be fully vaccinated as a country. easy to put up percentages. they more people in LA than all of Canada combined

 

[PrivatePilot]

Off-label can be beneficial. People imply that it is always harmful. Afaik, the best medicine to minimize your chance of altitude sickness is still Viagra.

I'm on a med right now to control my sciatica that had an unexpected side effect that ended up being something life-changing for me...in a good way.

When I asked my doctor if correlation really was causation after the fact (when I realized this other thing had almost completely disappeared) he looked up and discovered that, sure enough, for some people, it had that effect. Years of chasing different medications to control the issue with little to no success were suddenly irrelevant.

So yeah, off label has big potential with a lot of meds.

And no, it wasn't an STD or anything, lest the peanut gallery be thinking of anything lol

 

[Superveloce]

USA 44.22% (+0.11%), Canada 34.79% (+0.57%). We are 9.43% behind, caught up by 0.46% yesterday. Catch-up date at current trends, 25th May.

I think you are playing games with the numbers ...it’s more like USA over 31 percent are fully vaccinated. In Canada it’s only 2 to 3 percent ....Fully vaccinated is more important by 1,000,000 miles as you know

 

[GreyGhost]

I think you are playing games with the numbers ...it’s more like USA over 31 percent are fully vaccinated. In Canada it’s only 2 to 3 percent ....Fully vaccinated is more important by 1,000,000 miles as you know

The important line for spread appears to be one shot plus two weeks. The second shot helps but statistically, the first shot makes the biggest difference.

 

[Dimitri]

Everybody in the business did kick backs to doctors and off label use is rampant everywhere. Years ago when I worked for a few doctors we had a ball at the best restaurants etc. Medical conferences in the US were great. The Canadian doctors couldn’t take gifts from them as there were ethical restraints but I wasn’t a med so....armfuls of merch were brought back.

That's 100%, but as ethical and regulatory rules have clamped down, Pfizer does stand out for continuing the practice.

The important line for spread appears to be one shot plus two weeks. The second shot helps but statistically, the first shot makes the biggest difference.

Both AZ and J&J use similar technology. Both initially planned for a 1 dose vaccine regiment but AZ took the cautious approach and decided on two shots not one. While J&J stuck to one shot.

AZ also conducted two studies, one a month apart and one 4 months apart. So while our incompetent government screws up vaccinating our population and delays the second dose. At least with AZ we know it should work out okay.

I feel for those who get Pfizer and Moderna, we don't know if it will work out delaying the second dose. And those at greatest risk of COVID in terms of severity are being given them.

 

[Brian P]

I think you are playing games with the numbers ...it’s more like USA over 31 percent are fully vaccinated. In Canada it’s only 2 to 3 percent ....Fully vaccinated is more important by 1,000,000 miles as you know

Evidence from real world results in the UK (also on a delayed-second-dose strategy) suggests otherwise. Their case numbers plunged from January (lockdown) through end of March while they were administering first doses to everyone. United Kingdom COVID: 4,425,940 Cases and 127,570 Deaths - Worldometer They didn't start giving second doses in significant numbers until early April. Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research

It seems more like the first jab (plus two week delay) does 75% of the job (can still get infected although less chance of it happening, and keeps people out of hospital most of the time) and the second one gets it to 95%.

The other factor is this ... in order to get a second shot, you must first get the first shot ... and this is where the USA appears likely to encounter difficulty.