COVID and the housing market

My builder aquaintance here in Oakville says buying a knockdown vs empty lot can save well over a hundred grand with hookups and fees . The flattening part is cheap .


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Depending on how you organize the knock down, that can also sidestep Tarion as it's a "renovation". A friend in a crappy small sidesplit is living with a "renovated" neighbouring property. They kept part of a wall and it is at least triple the square footage, the FFE of the ground floor is above her roof line and there is another floor above that which starts above the peak of her roof.
 
DCs/connection fees were the cost of doing business when condo sale prices were high and building costs were lower. Sure they whined about them but it did not stop them from building. The economics have changed now plus all the fantasy of magical affordable housing ... at the same time cities have aging infrastructure that was not designed for this density and someone has to pay. How much is fair?

What we know for near sure, if they dropped to zero developers are not going to pass on the savings to the buyers, lol.
 
DCs/connection fees were the cost of doing business when condo sale prices were high and building costs were lower. Sure they whined about them but it did not stop them from building. The economics have changed now plus all the fantasy of magical affordable housing ... at the same time cities have aging infrastructure that was not designed for this density and someone has to pay. How much is fair?
To Mike's point, the first step is municipalities need a grenade. They are all broke. Unless someone wants to privately fund a $100M temple to hockey, they should be steel buildings with steel truss roof and no windows like all the 80's arenas that are still kicking. Cut municipal stupidity by 90% and you can reduce dc's by almost as much. For municipal buildings, no more net zero, no more green, no more LEED. Those are all just buzzwords to send budget to the moon with little positive effect other than a certificate on the wall and a press conference. Sure install heat pumps instead of boilers if that makes economic sense but chasing LEED points by washing dumptrucks at the construction site is beyond bonkers.

Aging infrastructure should be covered by property tax. If it's not, property taxes are wrong. DC's should cover additional infrastructure required to accommodate the additional dwellings.

EDIT:
Connection fees are also a way for unscrupulous builders to screw buyers. While the contract to build your dwelling has a price, it often has "plus connection fees". Most don't have wording about cost or cost plus ten or . . . Unscrupulous builders can pay a 10K hydro connection fee and tack 100K onto the final invoice for your house. Your choice at that point is pay or break the contract which would have you lose your deposit and face a potential lawsuit if the builder gets less than you agreed to pay.
 
My builder aquaintance here in Oakville says buying a knockdown vs empty lot can save well over a hundred grand with hookups and fees . The flattening part is cheap .


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My buddy was out a construction site recently for a rich couple beyond Algonquin.

Hydro wanted 1.3M to connect power from the road to the ‘cottage’.

They built a solar farm on the property for 500k and are living off grid.
 
Interesting comparison of development charges over time...

View attachment 71329
Ice cream cones and houses.

I've often commented of the $15,000 house I lived in in the early 1960's. it's now worth about 100 X more. Coincidentally, around that time a single scoop ice cream cone was six cents. Now it's 100 X more.
Gas was $0.07 L, now it's just over 20 X more. Milk and bread about 20-25 X more.

At least I can still afford most on the list, just not the house.
 
To Mike's point, the first step is municipalities need a grenade. They are all broke. Unless someone wants to privately fund a $100M temple to hockey, they should be steel buildings with steel truss roof and no windows like all the 80's arenas that are still kicking. Cut municipal stupidity by 90% and you can reduce dc's by almost as much. For municipal buildings, no more net zero, no more green, no more LEED. Those are all just buzzwords to send budget to the moon with little positive effect other than a certificate on the wall and a press conference. Sure install heat pumps instead of boilers if that makes economic sense but chasing LEED points by washing dumptrucks at the construction site is beyond bonkers.

Aging infrastructure should be covered by property tax. If it's not, property taxes are wrong. DC's should cover additional infrastructure required to accommodate the additional dwellings.

EDIT:
Connection fees are also a way for unscrupulous builders to screw buyers. While the contract to build your dwelling has a price, it often has "plus connection fees". Most don't have wording about cost or cost plus ten or . . . Unscrupulous builders can pay a 10K hydro connection fee and tack 100K onto the final invoice for your house. Your choice at that point is pay or break the contract which would have you lose your deposit and face a potential lawsuit if the builder gets less than you agreed to pay.
What about the slackers and entitled?

It seems everyone has a story about the time wastage. I have one where I can get names and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Why can't there be an inquiry to pare the ranks on all three levels of government?

Also how about a self help section. Put on your big boy pants and fix your own problem.
 
The NIMBY is strong with this one….project is set to obscure the view from Casa Loma downtown…

GTFO


this is why it takes forever to build anything.
"We were completely ignored". As you should be, you wanker. You are trying to limit height of buildings for kilometers to preserve the view from an outdoor area that you don't even own. That should be an instant rejection from any planning/tribunal/court. The fact that they can file it and require a formal response is appalling.
 
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"We were completely ignored". As you should be you wanker. You are trying to limit height of buildings for kilometers to preserve the view from an outdoor area that you don't even own. That should be an instant rejection from any planning/tribunal/court. The fact that they can file it and require a formal response is appalling.
The sad part is they are basing the fight on preserving a 90 year old factory that in Canada is "Historic".

Sadly we have so few historic areas that there isn't a lot to work with. Toronto historic architecture is, at best, a third rate rummage sale.
 
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LMFAO....'The builder should honour the appraised price...not the original sale price'...

You can't make this $hit up if you tried....

One side should be responsible for the swing in either direction (or at least a defined split). When people or builders start to try to win in one direction while avoiding losses in the other direction, it all goes to hell. These contracts will have nothing about appraised value in them and the buyers are just wasting energy and exposing how dumb they are.
 
One side should be responsible for the swing in either direction (or at least a defined split). When people or builders start to try to win in one direction while avoiding losses in the other direction, it all goes to hell. These contracts will have nothing about appraised value in them and the buyers are just wasting energy and exposing how dumb they are.
I didn't get a translation but assume they want the choice of the appraised price or contract price, whichever is lower.
 
I didn't get a translation but assume they want the choice of the appraised price or contract price, whichever is lower.
I assume they do too and that's the issue. Contract should have one of:
  • Pay contract price (no mention of appraised price)
  • Pay appraised price (regardless of whether it is up or down from contract price)
  • Pay partway between appraised and contract price (both sides win or lose according to the agreed split)
Any contract that tries to hand the upside to one party and the downside to the other is crap. Some unscrupulous builders were trying to use dirty tricks to grab some of the upside before and that was also crap.
 
I assume they do too and that's the issue. Contract should have one of:
  • Pay contract price (no mention of appraised price)
  • Pay appraised price (regardless of whether it is up or down from contract price)
  • Pay partway between appraised and contract price (both sides win or lose according to the agreed split)
Any contract that tries to hand the upside to one party and the downside to the other is crap. Some unscrupulous builders were trying to use dirty tricks to grab some of the upside before and that was also crap.
While I agree that contracts favour the builders in pretty much every case...none of these people were forced to sign it. Not a single one had a gun pointed at them saying 'sign here'.

There were greedy and trying to profit off a run-up in prices (let's assume 50% are actual end users....HA!).

They would not be willing to share their profits with the builder if it went up.

What's the old saying....privatize the gains, but socialize the losses.

Zero sympathy here from me.
 
There is a reason the contract price is the price. If this was 5 years ago (upward market) the appraised price is likely much higher than the contract price and they would scream bloody murder if the developer could raise the price at closing to take a win on increased prices. In this case the market dropped and the contract is now higher than the appraised, so obviously why should the developer take the loss now if they can't take the win in an up market.

Now we have seen unscrupulousness on both sides in other cases. Developers that let the contracts time out--automatically breaking them (give back the deposits with tiny interest) so they can resell at the much higher prices. Developers adding extra fees to try and get some more money out of it. We have also seen entire developments go up in flames that were underwater (seller or buyers???).

In this case, the people are likely desperate as the banks will not finance based on sold/contract price if the now appraised price puts them under water. At the same time maybe (likely wrongfully) they think the developer sold them short by not building the value of house they bought. That last part is always possible but unlikely (I do know of some cases). Maybe they hope the developer might have pitty on them and lower the price so they can close, unlikely as the developer can sell to someone else for the appraised price and keep their down payments (and maybe go after them for the delta) but if the developer is cash flow short--maybe? But who knows... in the end they are throwing out some Hail Mary's before just walking away from their deposits or maybe more. I would risk looking stupid to some randoms on the interwebs if it saved me 400K...
 
On a related note, a Caledon golf course that has been owned and run by a family for almost 50 years is being converted to a subdivision. Family sold the course to a developer in 2022 and now has a boo-hoo story about being sad that the tradition is ending. Wtf. You probably got a nine figure cheque and you thought they would leave the course alone just because?

 
From the builder building short it does happen... I can't remember the minutiae of the situation but years ago when the market was smoking hot a former co-worker bought a townhouse per-construction. years later the townhouse that got built was not exactly as contracted due to zoning. Nine foot ceilings were now eight and two of the upper bedrooms were slightly smaller as the original outside dimensions of the building had to be made smaller, due to set backs and height. Blah blah blah dream home is not not what they expected.

Builder (from memory) tried to close at the original price (slimy). They said no. The builder offered three options, drop the price 100K (~10%), or a bunch of upgrades, or refund the deposit +interest and break the contract. They said no to all three, eventually the builder sent them the deposit back and they were hosed as a like townhouse was now 20%++ higher and they were priced out of the market... I bet they still rent.
 
From the builder building short it does happen... I can't remember the minutiae of the situation but years ago when the market was smoking hot a former co-worker bought a townhouse per-construction. years later the townhouse that got built was not exactly as contracted due to zoning. Nine foot ceilings were now eight and two of the upper bedrooms were slightly smaller as the original outside dimensions of the building had to be made smaller, due to set backs and height. Blah blah blah dream home is not not what they expected.

Builder (from memory) tried to close at the original price (slimy). They said no. The builder offered three options, drop the price 100K (~10%), or a bunch of upgrades, or refund the deposit +interest and break the contract. They said no to all three, eventually the builder sent them the deposit back and they were hosed as a like townhouse was now 20%++ higher and they were priced out of the market... I bet they still rent.
Condos are interesting as IIRC your square footage goes to the center of the party wall. If something changes and they need to make the wall thicker, that affects your usable space but legally nothing is different.

As for your co-worker, just like CP, digging in your heels and refusing to negotiate rarely makes things better. From what you described, those offers sound reasonable.

Interest on a deposit is 2% under BOC rate. For most of the last 15 years, that is zero interest. That really sucks when that money invested anywhere for the years it was sitting in trust with the builder would have appreciated substantially. Not only are you behind on house prices if you don't close, your warchest has depreciated substantially.
 
Condos are interesting as IIRC your square footage goes to the center of the party wall. If something changes and they need to make the wall thicker, that affects your usable space but legally nothing is different.

As for your co-worker, just like CP, digging in your heels and refusing to negotiate rarely makes things better. From what you described, those offers sound reasonable.

Interest on a deposit is 2% under BOC rate. For most of the last 15 years, that is zero interest. That really sucks when that money invested anywhere for the years it was sitting in trust with the builder would have appreciated substantially. Not only are you behind on house prices if you don't close, your warchest has depreciated substantially.
Another co-worker the unit was fine but the original building plans had 20 foot ceilings in the lobby and a waterfall, 10 foot and no waterfall was built (same thing zoning, building height...). He got them to upgrade the appliances and coutertops...
 
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