Just means that would be the tightest possible turn. So they would need quite a lot of room to turn. I used to have a an old highway patrol car. Was a Grand Marquis. Great car on the highway, but a pain in city traffic and parking lots.
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Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
- Thread starter CafeRay
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Just means that would be the tightest possible turn. So they would need quite a lot of room to turn. I used to have a an old highway patrol car. Was a Grand Marquis. Great car on the highway, but a pain in city traffic and parking lots.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Well I certainly have not and am not making completely unsubstantiated claims about events and it was me who you quoted and responded to. Merely pointing out that the report might be less than accurate and that there exists a possibility something is awry prompted you to crack wise about a magicians hat. My feelings aren't hurt, that's not the issue at all. Yes, we get that, per report, it has been decided there is not sufficient evidence to warrant a charge. If this tragedy is largely down to the behaviour of the deceased (it may well be) I find it curious how the other half of the equation will not interview. Should we all just shut up and go home now?
edit, like I said earlier, no mas
Well I certainly have not and am not making completely unsubstantiated claims about events and it was me who you quoted and responded to. Merely pointing out that the report might be less than accurate and that there exists a possibility something is awry prompted you to crack wise about a magicians hat. My feelings aren't hurt, that's not the issue at all. Yes, we get that, per report, it has been decided there is not sufficient evidence to warrant a charge. If this tragedy is largely down to the behaviour of the deceased (it may well be) I find it curious how the other half of the equation will not interview. Should we all just shut up and go home now?
edit, like I said earlier, no mas
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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
So none of our other math/measurements are considered/valued in this discussion, but you're interested in the results of a quick and dirty headlight test?
So none of our other math/measurements are considered/valued in this discussion, but you're interested in the results of a quick and dirty headlight test?
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
The officer didn't speak as it is HIS RIGHT NOT TO and his legal representative and union reps would have told him NOT to say a word.
Again perhaps not you and casacrow, but the "default setting here at GTAM is do NOT talk to the cops under ANY circumstances. But simply because of his occupation he doesn't the same advice, or rights? The courts have ruled on this and your position is not in line with their ruling. (But I guess judges are also part of the cabal)
The officer didn't speak as it is HIS RIGHT NOT TO and his legal representative and union reps would have told him NOT to say a word.
Again perhaps not you and casacrow, but the "default setting here at GTAM is do NOT talk to the cops under ANY circumstances. But simply because of his occupation he doesn't the same advice, or rights? The courts have ruled on this and your position is not in line with their ruling. (But I guess judges are also part of the cabal)
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
The officer is doing exactly what so many people have advised members of this board to do, if in a similar situation. Expect no more information to be coming from that end, as compliance cannot be forced. As to the report being inaccurate it is almost certainly more accurate than the rampant suppositions put forth here, without so much as the evidence that they had to work with.
Which math/measurements? The comments about the requirement for visibility, for the turn to be legal? The measurements that confirm that the necessary distance of clear straight road is available? Perhaps the ones based on the supposition that the officer did something wrong? Mine? Yours? The SIU's?
The vast majority of math and measurements, put forth by posters here, have been based on unproven premises. Ever heard the expression, "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand"? If you build your assumptions on a shaky, unproven premise, then your conclusions are flawed.
I asked for a 'quick and dirty' test because visibility is somewhat subjective, so I'm looking for a general ballpark number. This is to provide a somewhat better basis, though admittedly still somewhat flawed, on which to base my own conclusions.
The officer is doing exactly what so many people have advised members of this board to do, if in a similar situation. Expect no more information to be coming from that end, as compliance cannot be forced. As to the report being inaccurate it is almost certainly more accurate than the rampant suppositions put forth here, without so much as the evidence that they had to work with.
Which math/measurements? The comments about the requirement for visibility, for the turn to be legal? The measurements that confirm that the necessary distance of clear straight road is available? Perhaps the ones based on the supposition that the officer did something wrong? Mine? Yours? The SIU's?
The vast majority of math and measurements, put forth by posters here, have been based on unproven premises. Ever heard the expression, "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand"? If you build your assumptions on a shaky, unproven premise, then your conclusions are flawed.
I asked for a 'quick and dirty' test because visibility is somewhat subjective, so I'm looking for a general ballpark number. This is to provide a somewhat better basis, though admittedly still somewhat flawed, on which to base my own conclusions.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
That is understood loud and clear!! Has been since day one. I wouldn't submit to interview either. But that it detracts from the information gathering process can't ignored. Actually it should be pointed out. These are 2 separate issues, surely you learned people see that?
That is understood loud and clear!! Has been since day one. I wouldn't submit to interview either. But that it detracts from the information gathering process can't ignored. Actually it should be pointed out. These are 2 separate issues, surely you learned people see that?
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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
No more so than if the average citizen did the same. If it was a regular citizen who was driving the car and he kept his mouth shut, the officers arriving on the scene would be in the same situation.
No more so than if the average citizen did the same. If it was a regular citizen who was driving the car and he kept his mouth shut, the officers arriving on the scene would be in the same situation.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Would the ensuing investigation be enhanced if the average citizen did the same? See what I mean?
Would the ensuing investigation be enhanced if the average citizen did the same? See what I mean?
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
It wouldn't be enhanced over the current situation, nor would it be hindered any more than it currently is. There's even a case to be made that officers in such a situation might take a look at the speeds involved and then wave off any charges completely. The expression is, "Too much paperwork." Might that be the case? I don't know, but it's as plausible as people believing that the officer, in this case, is getting a free ride.
It wouldn't be enhanced over the current situation, nor would it be hindered any more than it currently is. There's even a case to be made that officers in such a situation might take a look at the speeds involved and then wave off any charges completely. The expression is, "Too much paperwork." Might that be the case? I don't know, but it's as plausible as people believing that the officer, in this case, is getting a free ride.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
I just want all the information that's possible to gather, quite simply. It can only help in coming to more accurate conclusions no matter what they may be. If the gathering process is hindered for whatever reason I will always feel I could know more about the incident. If some rock is not overturned surely one party will feel shortchanged. I think that's been expressed here. 5K times. It pains me greatly but I'm going to have to click the "Post Quick Reply" button. AArrghh.
I just want all the information that's possible to gather, quite simply. It can only help in coming to more accurate conclusions no matter what they may be. If the gathering process is hindered for whatever reason I will always feel I could know more about the incident. If some rock is not overturned surely one party will feel shortchanged. I think that's been expressed here. 5K times. It pains me greatly but I'm going to have to click the "Post Quick Reply" button. AArrghh.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Unfortunately it's not public. Crown is the only one that gets the report.
All we get is the release with a whole lot of words, and very little content.
Unfortunately it's not public. Crown is the only one that gets the report.
All we get is the release with a whole lot of words, and very little content.
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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
According to the SIU, families of those investigated may get a copy of the report.
http://www.siu.on.ca/en/info_access.php
According to the SIU, families of those investigated may get a copy of the report.
http://www.siu.on.ca/en/info_access.php
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Even if it doesn't change the legal/charges/etc situation, those who have an interest in this situation (e.g. family and friends) may be interested in the outcome of a test like this.
If at all possible, at night, take digital photos facing an S1000RR with the camera set up approximately 42 inches off the ground (the height of the outside rear view mirror off the ground of a typical car - I don't have a Crown Vic to measure, it will be within a couple inches of this, if you want to be completely thorough then go measure one and use that number instead), and with the bike the following approximate distances away: 42 metres, 84 metres, 126 metres, and 150 metres. Those distances correspond to one, two, and three seconds of travel time at 150 km/h (and two, four, and six seconds at half that speed) and the last one is a distance that's in HTA s. 143 a number of times. Take one photo each with low-beams on, and another with high-beams on.
Then, take photos from the bike's viewpoint of something - preferably, a police car with the reflective markings, but we'll settle for an ordinary car with the headlights/taillights on - at the same distances.
This will give the perspectives of first how clearly Clayton would have been visible to the police officer at those distances away, and secondly how visible the police car would have been visible to him.
I have a pretty fair idea of what those photos are going to show ... especially if you can find a real police car to do it with ... but a picture speaks a thousand words.
Even if it doesn't change the legal/charges/etc situation, those who have an interest in this situation (e.g. family and friends) may be interested in the outcome of a test like this.
If at all possible, at night, take digital photos facing an S1000RR with the camera set up approximately 42 inches off the ground (the height of the outside rear view mirror off the ground of a typical car - I don't have a Crown Vic to measure, it will be within a couple inches of this, if you want to be completely thorough then go measure one and use that number instead), and with the bike the following approximate distances away: 42 metres, 84 metres, 126 metres, and 150 metres. Those distances correspond to one, two, and three seconds of travel time at 150 km/h (and two, four, and six seconds at half that speed) and the last one is a distance that's in HTA s. 143 a number of times. Take one photo each with low-beams on, and another with high-beams on.
Then, take photos from the bike's viewpoint of something - preferably, a police car with the reflective markings, but we'll settle for an ordinary car with the headlights/taillights on - at the same distances.
This will give the perspectives of first how clearly Clayton would have been visible to the police officer at those distances away, and secondly how visible the police car would have been visible to him.
I have a pretty fair idea of what those photos are going to show ... especially if you can find a real police car to do it with ... but a picture speaks a thousand words.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
I don't think they get a copy, only a sit down and explanation.
You would think it would be the kinda thing we ought to have access to.
Ill let you know what they give me, but I'm guessing its only gunna be my interview.
I don't think they get a copy, only a sit down and explanation.
You would think it would be the kinda thing we ought to have access to.
Ill let you know what they give me, but I'm guessing its only gunna be my interview.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
So you were a witness? then why wasn't it until this thread was approx 20 pages long before you "hinted" you were actually there? Or at the very least observed either Clayton's bike or the cruiser pre collision??? If so what EXACTLY did you observe?
Time for FULL disclosure my friend.. Here you are complaining about the SIU, and the cops, perhaps not telling us the truth and you pull this?
Ok inreb. let's for a second "pretend" the cop submitted to an interview and provided his notes to the SIU and they reflected the same "version" as the SIU came to. Do you not think people would simply say "the cop is lying" So what purpose is to be served.
So you were a witness? then why wasn't it until this thread was approx 20 pages long before you "hinted" you were actually there? Or at the very least observed either Clayton's bike or the cruiser pre collision??? If so what EXACTLY did you observe?
Time for FULL disclosure my friend.. Here you are complaining about the SIU, and the cops, perhaps not telling us the truth and you pull this?
Ok inreb. let's for a second "pretend" the cop submitted to an interview and provided his notes to the SIU and they reflected the same "version" as the SIU came to. Do you not think people would simply say "the cop is lying" So what purpose is to be served.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
I see the cop led into the interview room and handed a cup of instant coffee. SIU leans in and spits da fuq?? Cop lets out a low whistle realizing his goose is cooked and peels off a string of expletives. SIU breaks into **** eating grin, points with trigger finger and yelps "GOTCHA" They high five and begin serious discussions about favourite donuts and other police business.
I see the cop led into the interview room and handed a cup of instant coffee. SIU leans in and spits da fuq?? Cop lets out a low whistle realizing his goose is cooked and peels off a string of expletives. SIU breaks into **** eating grin, points with trigger finger and yelps "GOTCHA" They high five and begin serious discussions about favourite donuts and other police business.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Yup, there will be those who make that accusation. But I would imagine the numbers would be a fraction of those who are currently vocalizing their discontent with the officers silence.
We are told time and time again that these public servants are, for various reasons, not subject to particular rules and regulations the average citizen must adhere to. Exceptions are written in for the police services.
I'm of the understanding that on duty, police don't have to wear a seat belts, Furthermore, many are constantly on the computer while travelling at 60-70kph in a 50kph zone (speed's not really relevant) This is done despite all the 'Studies' on distracted driving and seat belt safety and the obvious increased risk of injury and collisions. I could go on, but it is not my intent to argue these points. Rather, I understand that these exceptions are made to allow them to effectively do the job, which is very different then the average career. But...
If all these special exceptions can be made when they are on duty in the interest of furthering their ability to catch bad guys, why is it so unreasonable to expect a statement to be made when an officer is involved in a fatal collision while on duty?
Yup, there will be those who make that accusation. But I would imagine the numbers would be a fraction of those who are currently vocalizing their discontent with the officers silence.
We are told time and time again that these public servants are, for various reasons, not subject to particular rules and regulations the average citizen must adhere to. Exceptions are written in for the police services.
I'm of the understanding that on duty, police don't have to wear a seat belts, Furthermore, many are constantly on the computer while travelling at 60-70kph in a 50kph zone (speed's not really relevant) This is done despite all the 'Studies' on distracted driving and seat belt safety and the obvious increased risk of injury and collisions. I could go on, but it is not my intent to argue these points. Rather, I understand that these exceptions are made to allow them to effectively do the job, which is very different then the average career. But...
If all these special exceptions can be made when they are on duty in the interest of furthering their ability to catch bad guys, why is it so unreasonable to expect a statement to be made when an officer is involved in a fatal collision while on duty?
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Page 17 post 334 you posted this.
Please offer your full interpretation of events. What are the possibilities based on your observations? I would really like to hear what your thoughts are on what both vehicles did that night.You have spent much time in an effort to discredit me(doing a good job BTW), I would really like to know what you believe happened.
Well now there is no need to "discredit" you any further as you yourself have done this by MISLEADING this entire froum, by NOT disclosing you were actually a witness to the events, (or at least have given a statement to the SIU).
Let me ask you one final question did the SIU in ANY manner try to get you to provide a statement which stated that the rider was at fault and the the officer did NOTHING wrong? Or did they simply take the statement as you provided and perhaps asked a few supplementary questions for clarification.
I hope the family have read this ENTIRE thread you have advanced several "differeing versions and scenarios" as you said you believed them to have happened. A TRUE witness would have observed exactly what happened and would not have had to complete "their own investigation" to get the "true events" as you posted on I think it may have been somewhere between pages 11 and 15.
Do you NOT realize that you "may" very well have damaged any civil suit the family brings? The defendants lawyers, and the insurers who cover him WILL have investigators all over this thread and they will discredit ANYTHING you have provided in a statement. SO if you statement "may" have helped the family in a civil suit it will now be dismissed, (remember the rules in civil court are VERY VERY different.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Page 17 post 334 you posted this.
Please offer your full interpretation of events. What are the possibilities based on your observations? I would really like to hear what your thoughts are on what both vehicles did that night.You have spent much time in an effort to discredit me(doing a good job BTW), I would really like to know what you believe happened.
Well now there is no need to "discredit" you any further as you yourself have done this by MISLEADING this entire froum, by NOT disclosing you were actually a witness to the events, (or at least have given a statement to the SIU).
Let me ask you one final question did the SIU in ANY manner try to get you to provide a statement which stated that the rider was at fault and the the officer did NOTHING wrong? Or did they simply take the statement as you provided and perhaps asked a few supplementary questions for clarification.
I hope the family have read this ENTIRE thread you have advanced several "differeing versions and scenarios" as you said you believed them to have happened. A TRUE witness would have observed exactly what happened and would not have had to complete "their own investigation" to get the "true events" as you posted on I think it may have been somewhere between pages 11 and 15.
Do you NOT realize that you "may" very well have damaged any civil suit the family brings? The defendants lawyers, and the insurers who cover him WILL have investigators all over this thread and they will discredit ANYTHING you have provided in a statement. SO if you statement "may" have helped the family in a civil suit it will now be dismissed, (remember the rules in civil court are VERY VERY different.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.
Relax Hedo. I believe somewhere early in this thread he disclosed that he was a friend of Clayton. They likely interviewed him to get an insight as to Clayton's character.
Relax Hedo. I believe somewhere early in this thread he disclosed that he was a friend of Clayton. They likely interviewed him to get an insight as to Clayton's character.
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