Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation. | Page 36 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

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My opinion is not relevant. It is the facts that decide if a person is responsible. Those facts also MUST be supported by evidence.

Also I have never said the rider is "solely responsible" for this collision. I have said that his riding was a major contributing factor, and that those who have looked at all the evidence determined there was insufficient evidence to proceed with a charge.

casacrow said:
At what speed do you believe would make a rider soley responsible for the collision, in your opinion?
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But again your "implying or intimating" that the officer was doing more than a U turn that he was trying to stop the bike there is zero evidence of that. Unless you have seen something which I have missed. the report clearly states he was completeing a Uturn, then DVS Bullet replayed that the cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h.

inreb said:
That's ironic because some people think intentional speeding would warrant more care and attention. That's how I roll anyway. Sure, you're left with hoping the guy ahead doesn't pull a sudden Uee. But I understand your point. All I've ever felt about the case is that it's "possible" the officer used poor judgement in deliberately intervening with the speeding m/c in some misguided fashion. That there is not enough "evidence" to charge him.....
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hedo2002 said:
But again your "implying or intimating" that the officer was doing more than a U turn that he was trying to stop the bike there is zero evidence of that. Unless you have seen something which I have missed. the report clearly states he was completeing a Uturn, then DVS Bullet replayed that the cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h.
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And again, a u turn that collected a speeding motorcycle. If not for that this thread wouldn't exist. Like stepping off a curb, it's not really news unless you get creamed.
 
hedo2002 said:
the report clearly states he was completeing a Uturn, then DVS Bullet replayed that the cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h.
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For me that's the major point of contention. To do a U turn at a speed of 25 km/hr in a Crown Victoria, one would need a lot of room; several lanes. In this case there were only 2 lanes and a narrow shoulder. Something smells funny.
 
inreb said:
That's ironic because some people think intentional speeding would warrant more care and attention. That's how I roll anyway. Sure, you're left with hoping the guy ahead doesn't pull a sudden Uee. But I understand your point. All I've ever felt about the case is that it's "possible" the officer used poor judgement in deliberately intervening with the speeding m/c in some misguided fashion. That there is not enough "evidence" to charge him.....
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Use all the perceived care and attention you want but if your headlight is only showing you what's a half second ahead of you, you're operating your vehicle without actual care and attention, or in a manner dangerous to the public.

You could fill a magician's hat with all the 'what if?' possibilities. It's possible that the cop intentionally tried to stop the bike. It's possible that the cop didn't look before moving. It's possible that the bike was doing 200+ Kmh, rather than the 150+ they measured from the skid marks. It's possible that the bike's rider was glancing down at his speedo when the cop pulled out. The law functions on preponderance of evidence (civil), high probability (HTA, etc.), and virtual certainty (criminal) rather than 'what if?'
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Rob MacLennan said:
Use all the perceived care and attention you want but if your headlight is only showing you what's a half second ahead of you, you're operating your vehicle without actual care and attention, or in a manner dangerous to the public.

You could fill a magician's hat with all the 'what if?' possibilities. It's possible that the cop intentionally tried to stop the bike. It's possible that the cop didn't look before moving. It's possible that the bike was doing 200+ Kmh, rather than the 150+ they measured from the skid marks. It's possible that the bike's rider was glancing down at his speedo when the cop pulled out. The law functions on preponderance of evidence (civil), high probability (HTA, etc.), and virtual certainty (criminal) rather than 'what if?'
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inreb said:
Follow the biases. It's a huge part of human nature. Don't talk about professionals like it's some kind of salve. I readily acknowledge we live in an imperfect world. Only so much can be done within those confines.
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hedo2002 said:
And we agree.
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You can continue in that vein all you want Mr Rob but as long as there are legitimate trust and bias concerns I don't think it's unwise to consider possibilities other than those floated thru official channels. You've accepted everything in the report as gospel. Good for you. Now you can point at the report anytime somebody steps out of line.
 
85K100 said:
For me that's the major point of contention. To do a U turn at a speed of 25 km/hr in a Crown Victoria, one would need a lot of room; several lanes. In this case there were only 2 lanes and a narrow shoulder. Something smells funny.
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Curb to curb for the car is approx 40'.
 
hedo2002 said:
My opinion is not relevant. It is the facts that decide if a person is responsible. Those facts also MUST be supported by evidence.

Also I have never said the rider is "solely responsible" for this collision. I have said that his riding was a major contributing factor, and that those who have looked at all the evidence determined there was insufficient evidence to proceed with a charge.
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Just asking you to elaborate on your post discussing "Levels" of speeding. If you can comment on levels of speeding, I'm sure you're able to share at what level the speed places fault on the rider.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

inreb said:
You can continue in that vein all you want Mr Rob but as long as there are legitimate trust and bias concerns I don't think it's unwise to consider possibilities other than those floated thru official channels. You've accepted everything in the report as gospel. Good for you. Now you can point at the report anytime somebody steps out of line.
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I've accepted the report as what we have.
 
hedo2002 said:
But again your "implying or intimating" that the officer was doing more than a U turn that he was trying to stop the bike there is zero evidence of that. Unless you have seen something which I have missed. the report clearly states he was completeing a Uturn, then DVS Bullet replayed that the cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h.
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I think there is some solid evidence out there that the officer successfully stopped the bike.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Rob MacLennan said:
I've accepted the report as what we have.
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Then why are you making snide remarks about magicians hats? Is the officers version of events in the report? No mas.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I guess if i'm ever in a situation like this where my life as about to be taken I will be pointing my bike straight at the police officers door. hopefully cutting him in half. After that makes news they will think twice before attempting a bone head move like this. this is assuming the cop without warning blocked clayton's right of way regardless of speed. because i dont know know what happened but do have my suspicions.
 
Go back and re read the post. Both my comments about "levels' of speeding end in a QUESTION mark. They are questions, (which I was putting to inreb), regarding one of his earlier posts. They are not statements made by me, therefore I can't comment on "what level the speed places on the rider"

I believe it will be very interesting if the family chooses to post as to what Clayton's insurers are saying about the level of fault under their FDR, as they are the ones who will "assign fault", (to which ever party is deemed under the FDR's to be at fault). It is not my place, nor do the courts "assign fault". The court merely rules on the violations placed before them.

I have investigated collisions where I "felt" one party was "at fault" but the insurer viewed it totally different. I also have not laid a charge in some of those cases because what "I felt", wasn't enough to gain a conviction.

casacrow said:
Just asking you to elaborate on your post discussing "Levels" of speeding. If you can comment on levels of speeding, I'm sure you're able to share at what level the speed places fault on the rider.
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hedo2002 said:
Go back and re read the post. Both my comments about "levels' of speeding end in a QUESTION mark. They are questions, (which I was putting to inreb), regarding one of his earlier posts. They are not statements made by me, therefore I can't comment on "what level the speed places on the rider"

I believe it will be very interesting if the family chooses to post as to what Clayton's insurers are saying about the level of fault under their FDR, as they are the ones who will "assign fault", (to which ever party is deemed under the FDR's to be at fault). It is not my place, nor do the courts "assign fault". The court merely rules on the violations placed before them.

I have investigated collisions where I "felt" one party was "at fault" but the insurer viewed it totally different. I also have not laid a charge in some of those cases because what "I felt", wasn't enough to gain a conviction.
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Ah 10-4. I thought you believed that different levels of speed came with different levels of responsibility. Thanks for making it clear that you do not believe so.
 
casacrow said:
Ah 10-4. I thought you believed that different levels of speed came with different levels of responsibility. Thanks for making it clear that you do not believe so.
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Gold
 
No problem what I believe is not relevant, (either way), as I won't be the one to "assign responsibility"

BTW "responsibility" can't be "tied" to charges, in case that wasn't clear in my other post. here is a personal example many years ago i was traveling down a road in the winter. It had snowed in the previous days the road was never plowed and had become hard packed ice. My vehicle skidded into the ditch on a curve.

The police responded to the accident. My insurer found me 100 responsible, (single vehicle collision), the police did not lay a charge.

casacrow said:
Ah 10-4. I thought you believed that different levels of speed came with different levels of responsibility. Thanks for making it clear that you do not believe so.
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You gotta kick the back out Tony Stewart like.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

inreb said:
Then why are you making snide remarks about magicians hats? Is the officers version of events in the report? No mas.
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Because people are making some completely unsubstantiated claims about events, based purely on supposition. At least the SIU report has the appearance of having been derived from both physical and documentary evidence, by people who have both the training and experience to interpret such.

No matter what some people choose to believe, to read into the events despite the lack of supporting evidence, there are no grounds for this officer to be charged and this is largely down to the behaviour of the deceased, himself.

*EDIT* An interesting point was raised by someone I had a face to face conversation with, about this incident. Given that there are a number of S1000Rs out there, on the board, could one of the owners go out to a dark road somewhere and do a quick and dirty test on what the distance is at which things can be made out clearly, in the light of the headlight, on both normal and high beam? Just a quick pace-off calling each step roughly a metre would be plenty.
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