Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[hedo2002]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The cop would have been at fault in the "alternative" possibility... Why? Because to soooo many on here the default setting is the cop is always at fault.. They would have had the pitch forks out why is there EVER a need for a cop to be driving so recklessly at 150 km/h... But when the rider was doing it he bears no responsibility for that....

Same thing had the female witness been startled by the fast approaching bike and swerved which then caused Clayton to lose control. It would have been her fault as she should have expected and anticipated that a bike would be doing twice the legal limit along that road.

This next portion isn't directed at your post at all, it has been something that I have meant to add to a few of my posts but kept forgetting.

Can we stop saying the rider was speeding... He wasn't he was STUNT driving, (according to the current set of laws, agree with it or not), he was traveling at 154 km/h in a posted 80, (although due to construction the the limit may have been reduced even further). That places him well into the area of a 172 charge, to say he was speeding ,makes it seem like the was just out riding at 15 - 20 km over the posted limit.

It would be "politically incorrect" and a bad PR move but as the other poster stated the cop could also sue Clayton's estate, (by extension his insurer), for the trauma and damages he may have suffered. YRP could also sue as they would have had to replace the cruiser, plus all the related equipment, Then there would be wages paid to the officer while he was off. Then if he was on long term disability that insurer could also sue to recover whatever they paid out. etc etc etc.

If you read the post in it's entirety you would have seen that I not only took the highest speed limit roads where u-turns are possible, but I also added an extra 30km/h to the equation. I assumed nothing.

Let's assume the opposite here happened, Clayton was doing a U-turn on his bike, and the cop came flying up that road at 150km/h and killed him. Would those defending him now be defending the actions of the cop in that case? Or would you be blaming Clayton for doing a U-turn?

 

[happycrappy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Can we stop saying the rider was speeding... He wasn't he was STUNT driving, (according to the current set of laws, agree with it or not), he was traveling at 154 km/h in a posted 80, (although due to construction the the limit may have been reduced even further). That places him well into the area of a 172 charge, to say he was speeding ,makes it seem like the was just out riding at 15 - 20 km over the posted limit.



Considering the construction area, would an officer also consider this to meet a "dangerous driving" threshold as well?

 

[DaveTheCanuck]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Let's assume the opposite here happened, Clayton was doing a U-turn on his bike, and the cop came flying up that road at 150km/h and killed him. Would those defending him now be defending the actions of the cop in that case? Or would you be blaming Clayton for doing a U-turn?

Heh, I love this.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Considering the construction area, would an officer also consider this to meet a "dangerous driving" threshold as well?

Quite possibly, though stunt driving would be a pretty big hammer anyway. Then there's the "double fines for construction zones" thing too.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Someone riding in a construction zone in this manner likely would have been charged with 172, Careless as well as Dangerous. Then when it came time for court they would have likely plead out the case to the single charge of 172.

Rob: As to the doubled fines for a construction zone that wouldn't have been applicable in this case, as the fines are only doubled "when workers are present"

Can we stop saying the rider was speeding... He wasn't he was STUNT driving, (according to the current set of laws, agree with it or not), he was traveling at 154 km/h in a posted 80, (although due to construction the the limit may have been reduced even further). That places him well into the area of a 172 charge, to say he was speeding ,makes it seem like the was just out riding at 15 - 20 km over the posted limit.



Considering the construction area, would an officer also consider this to meet a "dangerous driving" threshold as well?

 

[DVS Bullet]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If you read the post in it's entirety you would have seen that I not only took the highest speed limit roads where u-turns are possible, but I also added an extra 30km/h to the equation. I assumed nothing.

Let's assume the opposite here happened, Clayton was doing a U-turn on his bike, and the cop came flying up that road at 150km/h and killed him. Would those defending him now be defending the actions of the cop in that case? Or would you be blaming Clayton for doing a U-turn?

No, in that case I would put the blame on Clayton's actions. But that is not the case.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.



Well I spent today in self doubt. I could not really understand how so many people could not see what I believed is clearly obvious. It's my nature to audit my own thoughts and to honestly consider all opposistion......I am extremely empathetic.

I couldn't help but make a long detour on my way home tonight to visit the site yet again. I spent a couple hours there...trying to find a way that I could be wrong in my thoughts. I made rough measurements off the odemeter, and likely burned an 8th of a tank of fuel. I tried and tried to find the errors in my thinking.

My conclusion, based on my observations of the roadway shortly after the collision, is that I am pretty dead accurate in my line of thoughts, and that although I do truly greatly appreciate challenges to my line of thoughts...the comments and and interpretations from the real SPOON FED INTERNET CSI's simply do not apply.

Please in the future....stop reffering to me and others as"Internet CSI's". "Internet IDENT" would be more appropriate considering my experience with legal investigations in Ontario.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

From the image I roughly sketched and posted with my trusty blue inked pen in the post above; feel free to comment, challenge, and question my thought process. Don't worry about my feelings, I have my tinfoil hat securely in place and I trust it will protect me from emotional duress.

Please do feel free to go the the area yourself and make your own conclusions.

-Sightline from top of hill to point of impact is approx 550 Meters. At 150km/hr this would allow about 12 seconds of visibility to the point of impact. I'd say it would be difficult to explain how the car did not see a headlight in the dark at that distance.

-Sightline looking West from top of hill is approx 825Meters. I believe it would be completely obsurd for the car to say that they didn't see a headlight behind them before even cresting the hill.

-The car had a minum of 12 seconds to see the motorcycle's headlight behind them(should they have cared to check) before impact.

-12 seconds is more than enough time to make whatever turning manouvere they attempting to accomplish.

- If construction barriers were obstructing view as an excuse, than clearly it was a less than appropriate place for a UTurn or whatever manouver they were attempting that would block the roadway.

-This diagram was shown to an OPP officer tonight, this may not count for much, but his opinion was that the car likely observed the bike travelling at high rate of speed behind him approaching the top of the hill, then the car exited the roadway and re-entered after the concrete barrier in an attempt to stop the motorcycle.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't agree with what the officer did but painting this rider as not doing anything wrong is just as bad as jumping to conclusions about the officer.

Well received, rider was speeding/Stunt driving. So what did the officer do?

 

[Renboy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

View attachment 35817View attachment 35817

Well I spent today in self doubt. I could not really understand how so many people could not see what I believed is clearly obvious. It's my nature to audit my own thoughts and to honestly consider all opposistion......I am extremely empathetic.

I couldn't help but make a long detour on my way home tonight to visit the site yet again. I spent a couple hours there...trying to find a way that I could be wrong in my thoughts. I made rough measurements off the odemeter, and likely burned an 8th of a tank of fuel. I tried and tried to find the errors in my thinking.

My conclusion, based on my observations of the roadway shortly after the collision, is that I am pretty dead accurate in my line of thoughts, and that although I do truly greatly appreciate challenges to my line of thoughts...the comments and and interpretations from the real SPOON FED INTERNET CSI's simply do not apply.

Please in the future....stop reffering to me and others as"Internet CSI's". "Internet IDENT" would be more appropriate considering my experience with legal investigations in Ontario.

I assume from your drawings that Clayton was heading East, and after the crest there was about 550m to the end of the concrete barriers from which the cop pulled out from behind? I don't know the area at all, so I thank you for the time to take the measurements and make up the sketch.

 

[DaveTheCanuck]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, IDENT.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Many experts in law enforcement have stated the Ontario police have significant problems with poor training and poor health. there have been many, many cops involved in illegal activity in the GTA, and have lied in court.

Odd how when civilians mislead/lie to officers it's called obstruction, yet when they do the same to us it's part of the investigative process?

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, IDENT.

That's Internet ident to you.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If the pylons were his skid marks, why are they on the wrong side of the road?
Wouldn't that mean if he was on the proper side of the road he wouldn't have collided with the cruiser?

No offence if this is your friend, It seems both sides stories don't line up....

Possibly an attempt to avoid collision with a vehicle making some attempt to engage him?

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Wow, I am not sure if this is due to the fact that i was raised in a different culture/country but for the life of me, I can not understand how someone can justify what the cop presumably did.

So for argument sake let's say that:
-The SIU discovered the police officer did position the car in a way that gave the rider no way out in an attempt to stop him from speeding
-The rider was speeding and in short and a tshirt (not sure how the dress code is relevant but hey)

What some of you are saying is that the actions of the police officer that (in my example) caused the death of the rider are justified?

Speeding is speeding according to the law, so do you also agree that if you are going 101km/hr on the 401, a police officer is justified to ram you with their car?

At what point is a police officer trained to make a decision on using deadly force against someone not intermediately posing a risk to someone - yes speeding can result in hurting someone but is a police officer justified to kill someone for what it might happen? (minority report)

No wonder I have very few friends I care to spend time with and i am glad to keep it like that, most people are disgusting from what I read here!

Some rational thinking here?

 

[Benny!]

Okkkk then
I commend your dedication but I think you should chill dude. You're not going to uncover any secret conspiracy theories.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Not sure if serious however the answer is incorrect. Yes they can leave skid marks

Slice this one up any way you like. I'll bet money the cop is in the wrong and not a damn thing happens to him. Reverse the roles and we'd fry for this. Such ********

Wow. We could have prevented the SIU from completing their invesigation with this. What foresight you have.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

And yet that agency consists of other cops

Hmmmm thats something i'd expect to read on the onion news network, not real life

Almost unbeiveable isn't it?

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes IF the officer placed his cruiser in a position that left the rider NO way to avoid then that is wrong. VERY few of you have ever, (as I have worked as police officer), you have MILLISECONDS to make a decision. These decisions can lead to a life altering or life ending result.

I can assure you this officer didn't go on shift that evening saying, "goodness I hope someone dies tonight" Now having lived in Keswick for many years I am familiar with the road. The cruiser could NOT have completely blocked both lanes completely. There would have been enough space for a skilled rider, riding at a responsible speed to have avoided the cruiser. BUT for me to suggest that was an option is as silly as the poster who said a single bullet to a "non lethal" part of the body by police was an option in one of the other cases. Forget what you see in the movies.

Now having said that, posters have also said the officer placed "the public in danger" by, (IF he did positioning his cruiser on the road the way he did. This is not true. It placed the rider in danger. Now seeing as everyone likes to make assumptions, assume that the officer had let the rider pass pulled a quick turn and began a pursuit. The rider takes off to run, (which given his bravdo on FB is not out of the question). The rider then collides with another vehicle and kills a family of say 4. The officer would have been crucified, for pursuing the rider. But there still would have been a tragedy.

I realize that he was your friend and it is natural to try to place blame upon others and believe your friend did nothing wrong, I am sure I would do the exact same thing. But we have to be honest, the force of the collision clearly shows that your friends bike was traveling no where near the posted limit on that road.

NO ONE deserves to die, but sometimes people do things which contribute to the seriousness of the situation. You say the rider "didn't ride beyond his ability" well I would assert in this case he rode in a manner which made it impossible for him to stop or at least slow to a speed which may have been survivable. In this case it was a police cruiser, but it could have been a motorist making a left turn or u turn, the result would have likely been the same.

But let's not waiting for the accident reconstructionist to say how fast the rider was going or any other contributing factors. Let's blame the police as we as citizens never do any wrong it HAS to be the police all the time.

Having resided in Keswick has no bearing on you opinons of the road during construction. The roadway was altered.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Whatever happened to applying the brakes and coming to a full stop?

Oh wait.. going way too fast to stop safely.

Had the car made it's posistion obvious, I would assume Clay had enough room to stop.

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