Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[casacrow]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The cop would have been at fault in the "alternative" possibility... Why? Because to soooo many on here the default setting is the cop is always at fault.. They would have had the pitch forks out why is there EVER a need for a cop to be driving so recklessly at 150 km/h... But when the rider was doing it he bears no responsibility for that....

Same thing had the female witness been startled by the fast approaching bike and swerved which then caused Clayton to lose control. It would have been her fault as she should have expected and anticipated that a bike would be doing twice the legal limit along that road.

This next portion isn't directed at your post at all, it has been something that I have meant to add to a few of my posts but kept forgetting.

Can we stop saying the rider was speeding... He wasn't he was STUNT driving, (according to the current set of laws, agree with it or not), he was traveling at 154 km/h in a posted 80, (although due to construction the the limit may have been reduced even further). That places him well into the area of a 172 charge, to say he was speeding ,makes it seem like the was just out riding at 15 - 20 km over the posted limit.

It would be "politically incorrect" and a bad PR move but as the other poster stated the cop could also sue Clayton's estate, (by extension his insurer), for the trauma and damages he may have suffered. YRP could also sue as they would have had to replace the cruiser, plus all the related equipment, Then there would be wages paid to the officer while he was off. Then if he was on long term disability that insurer could also sue to recover whatever they paid out. etc etc etc.

Do you believe as your previous posts would imply, that only one party may bare full responsibilty for the collision? If so, I completely understand why you are no longer involved in law enforcement...

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I assume from your drawings that Clayton was heading East, and after the crest there was about 550m to the end of the concrete barriers from which the cop pulled out from behind? I don't know the area at all, so I thank you for the time to take the measurements and make up the sketch.

Yessir. You got it.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Do you believe as your previous posts would imply, that only one party may bare full responsibilty for the collision? If so, I completely understand why you are no longer involved in law enforcement...

Legally speaking, fault for a collision may be reassessed from the default assumptions for as little 15 Kmh over the limit.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

legally speaking, fault for a collision may be reassessed from the default assumptions for as little 15 kmh over the limit.

10-4:d

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Listen folks a bit off topic here but what I am about to say is with no exaggeration

Some one i know very well. A FRIEND, Who is maybe the most stupid and naive person I know in my life just got hired as a police officer. With enough talk you can make this person believe the earth is flat.

We assume the hiring was Based purely on the fact they were a minority as the person also has very minimal physical stature.

My point?

There are REAR REAL REAL. Dumb cops out there.. Nothing should surprise us


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So somehow a cop getting slapped with a hta fine would make all of this better? That does what for the loss of your friend exactly? I'm sorry for what happened but the odds of the cop getting a fine when they've already concluded that the speed of the rider was the main cause are pretty slim.

Being charged with HTA would greatly change our knowledge of the situation. We would then get to know the officer's name, the officer would have the option to plead guilty, or better yet the officer could plead not guilty which would eventually allow the public to become aware of the notes he made.

I can't really undestand how the SIU doesn't have access to the notes he took, they are not "his". They were taken while he was on the job and are property of the police service. It is required that YRP cooperates the SIU, but somehow they don't have to provide the notes. Must of been a silly court ruling at some point on this one.

Damn I would like to see those notes....wonder how they would align with the SIU findings?.....

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Cop has to live the rest of his life with the memory of watching a life lost as a direct result of his actions and you're concerned that he might have gotten off the hook on a traffic ticket?

Yes I believe the officer should get charged with HTA offense. Since you feel that a life was lost as a direct result of their actions, I can not understand how you wouldn't feel the same.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ah the magic phrase has FINALLY appeared. Although incorrect. A HTA charge will not have any bearing on a civil suit. Just like the acquittal of OJ didn't affect the civil suits against him.

The one thing that will affect any judgement , if they prevail, will be Clayton's actions, (his speed will be considered a major contributing factor, and will significantly reduce any award as he will "likely" be assigned a considerable amount of fault for the collision). You can bet the insurance lawyers will bring up everything to attempt to further reduce of eliminate damage awards, (yes using Clayton's FB page and his hooliganism, will be brought up, as they will want to show, remember they don't need to prove it, in a civil trial, that he was predisposed to dangerous and reckless behaviour), weather he was or not isn't really relevant all they have to do is plant the seed.

BTW the SIU didn't say the officers actions were "completely justified", they ruled the officers actions didn't meet the legal threshold to warrant they laying of charges.

Also someone asked how the SIU could rule there "may have been visual obstructions from the constructions" and not known 100%. There is actually a pretty simple logical conclusion that can be drawn. There would have been no way to determine Clayton's seated position on the bike at the time, (IE was he in a more upright position as opposed to a more tucked position). That could affect his ability to see over any of the barriers present at the time, (because again they looked at ALL evidence), I bet none of the internet CSI's here even considered this as a potential factor.

As to the statement they made about the "officer's intent to make a U Turn" again someone questioned how they could know what his intent was without speaking to him. Again simple answer they looked at the cruiser's blackbox and GPS information. This would have given them PRECISE movements of the cruiser, before doing and post collision. So again if the cruiser, (I will use a different term so casacrow doesn't go off again), "swung to the right and then began a movement" indicating the cruiser was in the process of turning to proceed in the other direction, (likely as most do when making a uturn without stopping first), then they can again draw a logical conclusion, as to his intent. This is done every time there is a fatal. Investigators for a variety of reasons can't speak to all parties involved, the officer in this case chose as is his legal right, to exercise the same rights afforded EVERY citizen of Canada.

It is not very difficult to determine sightlines. Wouldn't be very difficult to determine tucked vs upright sightlines either. I was more interested in the sightlines of the officer, not Clay. The few inches of rider height likely wouldn't have much effect of the officer's visibility as he would have been looking at a headlight. I am sure that this would have been included in their investigation. Offering a fluffy refernece to visibility in the SIU release is unacceptable to me.

And to the implied officer's INTENT. GPS/Black box data can only determine the movements of the vehicle, they are unable to read a human mind and predict what someone is intending to do next (Especially for me, they can't read my mind through my tinfoil hat....).The car blocked the road. I will assume intent was to block the road as that is what the vehicle movement completed successfully.I am interested to hear the officer speak to their intent, and provide the notes, at that point I may believe the intent was something other than blocking the road.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

“In the end, it seems that one or more of the man’s speed, low lighting conditions and possible visual obstructions caused by construction work in the area, contributed to the collision that occurred. Be that as it may, even assuming for the moment that the officer was something less than careful as he proceeded into his U-turn, I am satisfied that this singular indiscretion is far less than the marked departure from the level of care that a reasonable person would have exercised in the circumstances – the standard prescribed by the criminal law for there to be reasonable grounds to lay a criminal charge.”

The above paragraph i find truly strange. Read it a couple times and then go line by line.

"In the end, it seems that one or more of the man’s speed, low lighting conditions and possible visual obstructions caused by construction work in the area, contributed to the collision that occurred."

"Be that as it may, even assuming for the moment that the officer was something less than careful as he proceeded into his U-turn, I am satisfied that this singular indiscretion is far less than the marked departure from the level of care that a reasonable person would have exercised in the circumstances – the standard prescribed by the criminal law for there to be reasonable grounds to lay a criminal charge.”

It sure is fluffy....... I really get a kick out of the low lighting conditions part too. Both vehicles were equiped with lights. At night the lights provide an even greater contrast with the background and a vehicle's posistion can be observed from greater distances.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

"A civilian witness’ evidence gives us some sense of this possibility when she recounts that the motorcycle could not be seen in her rear view mirror when she checked it 30 seconds before it passed her at high speed without any warning."

This is some ground braking news, if you don't look in your mirror for 30 seconds you might not have seen what was there. And these are the people investigating? Jesus christ...

Its amazing how far the cops will go when they try to justify something

I can't believe they even included this statement in their release. It really does look foolish, and if this is the evidence used to draw their conclusion, perhaps a new slightly more professional investigation should take place.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Legally speaking, fault for a collision may be reassessed from the default assumptions for as little 15 Kmh over the limit.

Rob, where did you come up with this? I find it quite interesting. Can you point me in the direction where this has any precedence?

 

[happycrappy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

View attachment 35817View attachment 35817

Well I spent today in self doubt. I could not really understand how so many people could not see what I believed is clearly obvious. It's my nature to audit my own thoughts and to honestly consider all opposistion......I am extremely empathetic.

I couldn't help but make a long detour on my way home tonight to visit the site yet again. I spent a couple hours there...trying to find a way that I could be wrong in my thoughts. I made rough measurements off the odemeter, and likely burned an 8th of a tank of fuel. I tried and tried to find the errors in my thinking.

.

Clay may have been able to better react to the careless vehicle movements in front of him, if his speed was reduced.

Who knows what would of happened had speeding not been an issue as well. I'd imagine same outcome, but I'd rather spend my time and effort focusing on the true events.

In the interest of fairness, here are some true events: It has proven to be debatable if the officers actions were careless, but it is a solid fact that this rider WAS DOING DOUBLE THE LIMIT. I know you referenced ZX600's completely asinine viewpoint that 1 km over the limit is no more of a speeding offence than 50 over, but thankfully the rest of the world isn't that stupid. This entire collision was mitigated by the speed of the bike, full stop. Trying to shift fault around the way you have is completely shameful. You are clinging to how much of a sight line there was, was it a u-turn or not, was it intentional or not, etc; can you estimate a vehicle's closing speed from a distance? Most people cannot, when the vehicle in question is SMALL and travelling at such an aggressive speed.
I said it once and I'll say it again: Everyone should be thankful that there wasn't two fatalities that night. Not unlike being impaired, you do inherit fault when you speed to such a degree. THE RIDER made the decision to ride in such a way to end his life, nobody else. ****ing deal with it.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

In the interest of fairness, here are some true events: It has proven to be debatable if the officers actions were careless, but it is a solid fact that this rider WAS DOING DOUBLE THE LIMIT. I know you referenced ZX600's completely asinine viewpoint that 1 km over the limit is no more of a speeding offence than 50 over, but thankfully the rest of the world isn't that stupid. This entire collision was mitigated by the speed of the bike, full stop. Trying to shift fault around the way you have is completely shameful. You are clinging to how much of a sight line there was, was it a u-turn or not, was it intentional or not, etc; can you estimate a vehicle's closing speed from a distance? Most people cannot, when the vehicle in question is SMALL and travelling at such an aggressive speed.
I said it once and I'll say it again: Everyone should be thankful that there wasn't two fatalities that night. Not unlike being impaired, you do inherit fault when you speed to such a degree. THE RIDER made the decision to ride in such a way to end his life, nobody else. ****ing deal with it.

Doesn't matter if officer could estimate closing distance. If he had clear view he would have seen the headlight for at least 12 seconds( if they looked), more than enough time to make whatever turning manouver decided.

If the officer didn't have a clear view, than it was an unsafe movement.

Yes, Clay was speeding, but a 12 second sight line is plenty of room.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I've been following this thread from the beginning, but quickly skimmed over the last few pages so excuse me if I missed something.
I travel that road very frequently. I went through there soon after the accident. East bound traffic (Clayton) comes down a long grade into a lower elevation, then rises up again as it goes over the new overpass. Cresting the overpass it then goes downhill again to the point where the collision was, and beyond.
So there is a point where the rise of the overpass hides oncoming traffic to one looking from east to west.
The cop was just at the east end of the overpass so wouldn't have seen an oncoming vehicle in that depression.
The east bound traffic would have been on the normal south side of the road, except near the newly constructed 404 overpass it was diverted to the north side and a concrete jersey wall barrier was in the centre of the road. So the 2 westbound lanes were being used to handle traffic in both directions, and there was a quick short bend, where east bound traffic diverted 2 lanes to the left.
This would have further obstructed the view of oncoming traffic to a westbound vehicle.
Where the police car was hit was a very narrow piece of road. Just 2 lanes wide with a narrow shoulder on the north and the jersey wall on the south. A Crown Victoria would occupy all of that. I don't think there was enough room for a U turn. It would have been at least a 3 point turn; likely that wouldn't even work, and a 5 point turn would have been necessary.
If the car was across the road in the middle of that procedure (as it appears to have been by the damage in the centre side of the car) it would have been taking up the entire roadway.
In hindsight, it wasn't wise to do a U turn on a narrow roadway just over the crest of a blind hill. But it was late at night and there isn't a lot of traffic around there.
I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions.

I had the pleasure of meeting Clayton one day and we had a nice conversation about lots of things including our BMWs. I took some pictures of him and his beautiful bike with his phone.
He was a nice guy and I was deeply saddened to hear about this incident. I went there on my bike and had a good look around, and signed the memorial for him.
My condolences to his family and friends.

Thank you for your thoughts. Appreciate the time spent describing the layout. Would seem that anyone that simply attended the site(physically and not just what they read on the internet), all draw extremely similar conclusions. Now the spoon fed internet CSI group is a different story.....

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I know you referenced ZX600's completely asinine viewpoint that 1 km over the limit is no more of a speeding offence than 50 over, but thankfully the rest of the world isn't that stupid.

happycrappy, can you remind me of my reference to this post? I don't recall. I can assure you that I believe at 50km/hr over the speeding offence would then become a Stunt Driving charge. I also do believe that at 1km/hr over, or 50km/hr over, or even 100km/hr over, there was more than enough time for the officer to safely complete any turning manouver they decided. 12 seconds and only half way through the turn would be unsafe in any condidtion.

But then, the officer could of had a lapse of judgement and didn't look, or their view was obstructed(unsafe place to turn), or they delibertly blocked the road and engaged the motorcycle.

Those notes could tell us so much.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Rob, where did you come up with this? I find it quite interesting. Can you point me in the direction where this has any precedence?

Actually it's 'more than 15 Kmh over the limit.' It's a standard legal principle that's enshrined in the "Rules of Fault Determination", that are used in no fault insurance in Ontario. It carries over from when legal fault was used to determine fault for insurance purposes, prior to the advent of no fault. See Section 20(1)(e), here:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900668_e.htm

 

[Roomie]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok so because I'm missing something.... everyone says "cages can't judge a motorcycles speed" but now you've determined that this one cop could and maliciously pulled out in front of a bike? Really man? So could one argue that if your friend was doing the speed limit he likely could have stopped in this determined 12 seconds safely and we'd have no accident? I know it's all **** the police but this is getting ridiculous. Is the siu a joke? Absolutely but there's variables for both defenses here. Like I said before it sucks about what happened to your friend and I'm sorry for the loss no matter who did what but beating the issue to death over and over on a forum isn't really getting you anywhere now is it?

 

[Turbo gpz]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes I believe the officer should get charged with HTA offense. Since you feel that a life was lost as a direct result of their actions, I can not understand how you wouldn't feel the same.

I'll be as diplomatic as possible.

You can't understand because you're either blinded by grief or simply refuse to accept the obvious. Your friend was going twice the limit. He made this choice, no one else. A police officer happened to be driving the vehicle he hit. This is not the same as bearing responsibility for your friend's tragic choice.

you seem capable of clinging to the weakest of arguments in favor of your friend, why not accept the obvious. At night, with only headlights approaching directly in front, and with no other vehicles in the immediate vicinity to compare, it is near impossible for the human eye to accurately determine the speed of an oncoming vehicle. A great number of accidents occur because of this every year.

I'm not remotely interested in defending the cop, I'm sure he has his union, family, and colleagues ready to do so regardless of guilt or innocence. I'm simply saying that a reasonable person can come to no other conclusion than that the cause of this loss is the decisions of the rider.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok so because I'm missing something.... everyone says "cages can't judge a motorcycles speed" but now you've determined that this one cop could and maliciously pulled out in front of a bike? Really man? So could one argue that if your friend was doing the speed limit he likely could have stopped in this determined 12 seconds safely and we'd have no accident? I know it's all **** the police but this is getting ridiculous. Is the siu a joke? Absolutely but there's variables for both defenses here. Like I said before it sucks about what happened to your friend and I'm sorry for the loss no matter who did what but beating the issue to death over and over on a forum isn't really getting you anywhere now is it?

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

The SIU is largely a joke not because they are in bed with the officers that they are investigating, but rather because they don't have the teeth to force co-operation.

 

[happycrappy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Doesn't matter if officer could estimate closing distance. If he had clear view he would have seen the headlight for at least 12 seconds( if they looked), more than enough time to make whatever turning manouver decided.

If the officer didn't have a clear view, than it was an unsafe movement.

Yes, Clay was speeding, but a 12 second sight line is plenty of room.

Um, doesn't matter if he could judge the closing speed? Apparently it did matter...and by the way, if there was such a vast sight line, then one could presume that with the exceptional prowess and wonderful riding skills possessed by the deceased, a 12 second sight line may have given him a slight notion of possible obstacles IN A ****ING NARROW CONSTRUCTION AREA. No, sympathy for this guy got on the short bus and ****ed off.

Thank you for your thoughts. Appreciate the time spent describing the layout. Would seem that anyone that simply attended the site(physically and not just what they read on the internet), all draw extremely similar conclusions. Now the spoon fed internet CSI group is a different story.....

Apparently people that are actually documented and qualified investigators of major crashes feel differently. But what the Hell, someone with an emotional attachment and the ability to scribble images on-line is a pro, why not? Can you find Hoffa too?

happycrappy, can you remind me of my reference to this post? I don't recall. I can assure you that I believe at 50km/hr over the speeding offence would then become a Stunt Driving charge. I also do believe that at 1km/hr over, or 50km/hr over, or even 100km/hr over, there was more than enough time for the officer to safely complete any turning manouver they decided. 12 seconds and only half way through the turn would be unsafe in any condidtion. Post 275. And BTW, did you actually read this line before you posted it? If you want to ignore the math, then you really have no argument. I don't care if he was on the world's biggest pool table, closing speed has absolutely everything to do with calculating the time available to make a manouver. Not to mention, a bike is a small object, and according to you, the rider would have also had 12 seconds to see this cruiser. So which is it?

But then, the officer could of had a lapse of judgement and didn't look, or their view was obstructed(unsafe place to turn), or they delibertly blocked the road and engaged the motorcycle.

Those notes could tell us so much.

Ok so because I'm missing something.... everyone says "cages can't judge a motorcycles speed" but now you've determined that this one cop could and maliciously pulled out in front of a bike? Really man? So could one argue that if your friend was doing the speed limit he likely could have stopped in this determined 12 seconds safely and we'd have no accident? I know it's all **** the police but this is getting ridiculous. Is the siu a joke? Absolutely but there's variables for both defenses here. Like I said before it sucks about what happened to your friend and I'm sorry for the loss no matter who did what but beating the issue to death over and over on a forum isn't really getting you anywhere now is it?

This sums it up well, as do some of the others posts. He is gone now, absolutely due to his decisions as a rider. If you want to help him, his family, fellow riders, whatever, then maybe start looking at the absolute facts that lead to his death. People tend to live a lot longer not riding like this.

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