Can we mobilize teachers? | Page 12 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Can we mobilize teachers?

More food for thought...statistics. Teach enough students and nearly anything you can think of can happen...

Over the years I’ve probably taught more than 10,000 students. Deaths, suicides, assaults, criminal activities, if you can think of a situation I’ve probably had to deal with it. Every year something new crops up.
 
oomis said:
Just paraphrasing to make sure that I understand; teachers make too much money as a blanket statement?

Or, more specifically, teachers, as a whole, aren't worth the money they're paid?
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Not at the fault of any single teacher, there are plenty of great ones (and plenty of not so great ones).

I don't argue with what they ought to be paid as much as how they should be paid. If you took the contract work year of 1000 hrs and divided it by the average salary you get something close to $100/hr.

My preference, as stated earlier, is to ask teachers for a full 37.5hr work week and 45 work weeks per year. That would restore resources extra curricular activities and cut classroom sizes tremendously without adding a single employee. And, they still work less hours and have more time off than 99% of the Canadian fulltime workforce.
 
Mad Mike said:
Not at the fault of any single teacher, there are plenty of great ones (and plenty of not so great ones).

I don't argue with what they ought to be paid as much as how they should be paid. If you took the contract work year of 1000 hrs and divided it by the average salary you get something close to $100/hr.

My preference, as stated earlier, is to ask teachers for a full 37.5hr work week and 45 work weeks per year. That would restore resources extra curricular activities and cut classroom sizes tremendously without adding a single employee. And, they still work less hours and have more time off than 99% of the Canadian fulltime workforce.
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Will you pay overtime for evening and weekend work? I often end up working until midnight and many Sundays are used for Monday prep?

My brother works on contract (different job, materials engineer) and takes home a mint!

Edit: if you feel a bit green about what teachers are paid the solution as ever is really simple....go get a teaching degree and join them.
 
jc100 said:
Edit: if you feel a bit green about what teachers are paid the solution as ever is really simple....go get a teaching degree and join them.
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This. Teacher's College is really accessible, and teachers are needed badly right now. Come join us!
 
oomis said:
Cool. Glad this is a discussion and not ranting.

Are we differentiating good teachers from bad, before we move forward? Or is it just all teachers. Because bad employees exist everywhere, so I' don't really see any argument that just focusses on bad teachers to be useful or productive; that's just ranting.

The problem with ranting is that usually, the rant is right. It's just talking about something small in a way that makes it seem much bigger than it is.

My starting premise is that teaching is hard, in a way that if you haven't done it (and yes, college is different from university is different from secondary is different from elementary is different from kindergarten is different from preschool), so much so that as a secondary teacher, I wouldn't opine on anyone else's part of the world. It really is too different and that comes from a place of firsthand experience and exposure.

I also think that teachers are paid appropriately, and my view comes from comparison to the white collar sector; having hired and fired a lot of comparable salaries.

Teaching is easy for bad teachers, but I'm not talking about those. The solution for those is self-evident, they have to be fired and in this respect, I fully believe that the union gets in the way. But for good teachers, they pour their hearts and souls into their kids. Into all of our kids, and that comes at a very real personal cost. The heroics I'm seeing from teachers; the heroics I went through to make the learning process as effective and efficient as I could make it during the pandemic; I mean, we all have stories, but my point is that good teachers consistently put their students first.

Also, can we just stop with the vacation? Good teachers (not talking about bad ones), and I mean this seriously, get NO vacation. Christmas break is spent prepping, marking and communicating. March break is the same; because teaching is WAY more than teaching. Their salaries are pro-rated, as I saw someone post earlier, so they're being paid for 10 months. Right? Does that escalate the argument that they're being paid too much? Well, I suppose it's fodder, but I'll stand by the fact that teachers, based on comparison and experience, are paid appropriately.

Proof? The desperate need for teachers right now. It's not like people are lining up to do this job anymore. Supply and demand points to the idea that maybe teachers need to be paid more. I don't agree with that; as I said I think it's appropriate.
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Sorry, but I'm not drinking that koolaid. BIL is a teacher, SIL is a teacher, 3 close neighbors are teachers - all sing to that tune like it's a union fight song. They are regular people, nothing devine, no supreme altruism, just people doing a job. Get them relaxed, shields down and they will realistically compare their work to a private sector setting.

None of the teachers I know are prepping or marking during Christmas or March breaks. I know some that took a course over the summer early in their careers -- again not that special, I have lots of workplace colleagues that have taken career courses on their own time.

My BIL is a committed example, he a high school dept. science head, been doing it for decades. He arrives at school at 8:50, and is home by 2:30. He hasn't brought work home for 20 years, doesn't need to as he preps and marks during the 12hrs a week he’s not in front of a class. He does participate in some extra curricular stuff , but only things he likes (bike and canoe club) Every other year he teaches 20 x 3.5 hour days of summer school for $408/day.
jc100 said:
Will you pay overtime for evening and weekend work? I often end up working until midnight and many Sundays are used for Monday prep?

My brother works on contract (different job, materials engineer) and takes home a mint!

Edit: if you feel a bit green about what teachers are paid the solution as ever is really simple....go get a teaching degree and join them.
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I did teach up until Feb this year. Loved every minute of it, it’s very fulfilling work. I was fortunate in that my workplace (private sector) provided me 5+ weeks of vacation and a salary and benefits comparable to a high school teacher. My classes were adults, although I instructed kids for years.

I’m pretty sure you knew that ?
 
oomis said:
Also, can we just stop with the vacation? Good teachers (not talking about bad ones), and I mean this seriously, get NO vacation. Christmas break is spent prepping, marking and communicating. March break is the same; because teaching is WAY more than teaching. Their salaries are pro-rated, as I saw someone post earlier, so they're being paid for 10 months. Right? Does that escalate the argument that they're being paid too much? Well, I suppose it's fodder, but I'll stand by the fact that teachers, based on comparison and experience, are paid appropriately.

Proof? The desperate need for teachers right now. It's not like people are lining up to do this job anymore. Supply and demand points to the idea that maybe teachers need to be paid more. I don't agree with that; as I said I think it's appropriate.
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No vacation? That is flat out untrue. One of my best friends is a high school teacher and he laughs at all the whiners in the field. He takes home little to no work, even had time to take a part time hospital job a couple of nights a week for extra money.

If you want to make the argument they are only paid for 10 months then in that case the average teacher salary is over $110K per annum or top 8%
of Canadians.

The reason teachers college was changed to two years was to act as a deterrent to people trying to get into the field. There was such a saturation of teachers it was taking as long as 7 years to get a position. Now why do you think so many people wanted to become teachers here?
The 11 weeks vacation, 2 weeks forced sick days, the gold plated pension, the benefits, the fairly high salary, incredible job security.
Teachers dont work nights, they dont work holidays, they dont work weekends and they dont work in summer.
Many teachers outside of the big cities earn in the top 5%.
If the free market decided teachers compensation it would be lower, not higher.
 
ChrisCBR said:
No vacation? That is flat out untrue. One of my best friends is a high school teacher and he laughs at all the whiners in the field. He takes home little to no work, even had time to take a part time hospital job a couple of nights a week for extra money.

If you want to make the argument they are only paid for 10 months then in that case the average teacher salary is over $110K per annum or top 8%
of Canadians.

The reason teachers college was changed to two years was to act as a deterrent to people trying to get into the field. There was such a saturation of teachers it was taking as long as 7 years to get a position. Now why do you think so many people wanted to become teachers here?
The 11 weeks vacation, 2 weeks forced sick days, the gold plated pension, the benefits, the fairly high salary, incredible job security.
Teachers dont work nights, they dont work holidays, they dont work weekends and they dont work in summer.
Many teachers outside of the big cities earn in the top 5%.
If the free market decided teachers compensation it would be lower, not higher.
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Feel free to join them for these great conditions.
 
my hubby was home today and he listened to me as I was teaching my 20 little munchkins in grade 2/3...he is a very patient (and i mean, VERY patient), however by the end of the day he basically said i'm a saint...the amount of tech issues, questions, chatting, etc. drove him nuts...and i have a very well behaved class this year, unlike other years where i've had kids trash (and i mean trash by throwing furniture, books etc around) the classroom...teaching is not as easy as everyone thinks it is...as for our salaries, yes we are very well compensated, however as i've said before, it takes a good 10-15 years to get to top pay depending on your board...summers off?...most new teachers spend at least one month taking courses and at least 2 weeks in August getting ready for September...and that's only if you have a full time position, which most new graduates don't in their first 3-5 years (unless you teach french)...no work done at home?...then that teacher doesn't care, sorry...i've been at this for 16 years and always have something to do, whether it's marking, planning, report cards, etc...what works one year with one group of students doesn't necessarily work for this year's crop...then take into account parents...for every student and their individuality, there's a set of parents...so basically i have 60 clients that i have to keep happy every day...are there bad teachers?...of course, but that's in every industry...sorry for the rant, but i get ticked off when people who know nothing about the education system or have never set foot in a classroom except as a student 20 years ago tell me i have it easy...come spend a day with me and i'm sure you'll feel differently at the end of it...

oh, great pension?...yes we do have a great pension, however you should see how much i put into it...it's basically a forced rrsp...

benefits?...again yes, they're great, but again, i pay for them...

not saying i don't have a great career with great benefits etc, yes i do, but don't begrudge me what i've worked very hard to get...

sorry if i don't make sense or sound like i'm ranting...i'm tired...
 
ifiddles said:
my hubby was home today and he listened to me as I was teaching my 20 little munchkins in grade 2/3...he is a very patient (and i mean, VERY patient), however by the end of the day he basically said i'm a saint...the amount of tech issues, questions, chatting, etc. drove him nuts...and i have a very well behaved class this year, unlike other years where i've had kids trash (and i mean trash by throwing furniture, books etc around) the classroom...teaching is not as easy as everyone thinks it is...as for our salaries, yes we are very well compensated, however as i've said before, it takes a good 10-15 years to get to top pay depending on your board...summers off?...most new teachers spend at least one month taking courses and at least 2 weeks in August getting ready for September...and that's only if you have a full time position, which most new graduates don't in their first 3-5 years (unless you teach french)...no work done at home?...then that teacher doesn't care, sorry...i've been at this for 16 years and always have something to do, whether it's marking, planning, report cards, etc...what works one year with one group of students doesn't necessarily work for this year's crop...then take into account parents...for every student and their individuality, there's a set of parents...so basically i have 60 clients that i have to keep happy every day...are there bad teachers?...of course, but that's in every industry...sorry for the rant, but i get ticked off when people who know nothing about the education system or have never set foot in a classroom except as a student 20 years ago tell me i have it easy...come spend a day with me and i'm sure you'll feel differently at the end of it...

oh, great pension?...yes we do have a great pension, however you should see how much i put into it...it's basically a forced rrsp...

benefits?...again yes, they're great, but again, i pay for them...

not saying i don't have a great career with great benefits etc, yes i do, but don't begrudge me what i've worked very hard to get...

sorry if i don't make sense or sound like i'm ranting...i'm tired...
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I wouldn’t worry. Most of those ragging on teachers are the same ones that wont do the same for a guy with practically no qualifications to come and tickle a turd out of blocked pipes for the princely sum of your first child and your left kidney. Most of those complaining also couldn’t get or keep the job. I have no issues with teachers earning what they do because I couldn’t put up with the crap they put up with. My job is hard enough at times and I teach students classed as adults.
 
I don't begrudge teachers what they earn, if you can get a job with summers off, two weeks at Cmas, and a decent march break , fill your boots. For me the money was never a problem , its the never ending whinning and radio ads and union gooning.
And the "union" holding a gun to parents heads every head every few yrs. We will be out here on the sidewalk , getting nicely compensated, till you give us more. You figure out what to do with your kids while we have a little strike again.
 
Re: the ads. I would expect nothing less.
 
crankcall said:
I don't begrudge teachers what they earn, if you can get a job with summers off, two weeks at Cmas, and a decent march break , fill your boots. For me the money was never a problem , its the never ending whinning and radio ads and union gooning.
And the "union" holding a gun to parents heads every head every few yrs. We will be out here on the sidewalk , getting nicely compensated, till you give us more. You figure out what to do with your kids while we have a little strike again.
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agreed....I think the ads have misjudged the mood at times
 
jc100 said:
agreed....I think the ads have misjudged the mood at times
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Do any of the teachers speak up to the union and say this isn't the right time or message to send out, or better yet let's not get involved with the politics of said given situation?
 
sburns said:
Do any of the teachers speak up to the union and say this isn't the right time or message to send out, or better yet let's not get involved with the politics of said given situation?
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From what I know of unions, there’s an occasional “type” that can take over and push certain agendas that aren’t necessarily the focus of the membership. Get a few of these types together and you get a situation where the organization that controls the message isn’t necessarily speaking for the majority of the membership.
 
sburns said:
Do any of the teachers speak up to the union and say this isn't the right time or message to send out, or better yet let's not get involved with the politics of said given situation?
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Teachers I know that are involved with the union are hardcore "poor us". Most of the teachers that I know that love the kids and teaching want nothing to do with the union.
 
GreyGhost said:
Teachers I know that are involved with the union are hardcore "poor us". Most of the teachers that I know that love the kids and teaching want nothing to do with the union.
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This.
 
@GreyGhost that's actually old news...my board (as well as many others I've heard about) have already sent surveys out to parent to see who intends to continue or transition to remote learning for the next school year...I think it will be different in the fact that they won't be able to switch from online to in-class and vice versa like they did this year...my understanding is once they make a choice, they stick with it for the entire year...

oh, and to add...I for one don't care if they offer online learning, however, from what I understand is that the Ministry intends on having TVO run the courses...not sure about that one though

and I obviously don't like remote teaching, and I don't think it's great for the majority of learners (especially younger ones), however, some kids do better online than in class, so I can see why it's being offered...

but yeah, the unions don't like it...
 
ifiddles said:
@GreyGhost that's actually old news...my board (as well as many others I've heard about) have already sent surveys out to parent to see who intends to continue or transition to remote learning for the next school year...I think it will be different in the fact that they won't be able to switch from online to in-class and vice versa like they did this year...my understanding is once they make a choice, they stick with it for the entire year...
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I think offering it may be a good idea although I am conflicted. I believe much of the benefit from school (especially for younger kids) is the interaction/collaboration that is almost entirely missing from online learning (no fault of the teachers, it just doesn't work well in that environment). The parents choose whether the kids go to class or stare at a screen. It would be interesting to see if a certain type of parents was more likely to choose to keep their kids home (and imo, those kids benefit the most from seeing other views of the world).

It will be really interesting to see the uptake rate. I suspect that something similar will become permanent but doing it at a provincial level not a board level makes more sense to me.
 
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