Can we mobilize teachers?

[GreyGhost]

So before I get too involved in this thread, what are we doing here? Are we bashing? Is this political? Who are we angry at? Are we just talking? Is that even possible with a subject like this?

Some of all of the above? Open discussion. Mostly public sector unions bad (too much power, their goals not aligned with the goals or society or teaching [in your analogy they would rather do well than do good], etc). Some teachers great. A few teachers bad and protected by union. As a group, teachers could do great things, instead they are bashed back to lowest common denominator effort and do as little as possible for as much compensation as possible by the unions.

 

[GreyGhost]

I guess university/college will be their rude awakening if they go that route, where underperformers get filtered out without mercy lol

You think? If they are going to private school, your parents may have enough money that the layer of insulation still exists (see Lori Laughlin). Also look into what happens with varsity athletes and their "tutors" paid for by the schools. Don't get me started on accommodations for people that come up with learning disabilities. Their degree should get an asterisk on it. Employers expect you could do what was required to get the degree, they didn't expect you had double the time and open book to write every test.

 

[Wingboy]

I chose to go back to school to become a teacher in 2016. I left a long, lucrative career in the financial sector because, as I've said to people, "I'd like to do good, instead of just doing well". My accident in 2017 obviously cut all that short, and in Sept 2020m I chose (didn't have to, CHOSE) to go back to teacher's college to finish up, in the middle of the pandemic.

I'm older, so I get people that think that school, and kids are super-soft now compared to what it was like with us. I see some of it, but I see the other side too. I have 2 kids in high school currently, and so I am seeing this through their eyes as well.

So before I get too involved in this thread, what are we doing here? Are we bashing? Is this political? Who are we angry at? Are we just talking? Is that even possible with a subject like this?

We're waiting for the next strike.

 

[GreyGhost]

We're waiting for the next strike.

The unions always push for more. If we were the US and paying teachers 15K that would be reasonable. The system has evolved into an insular mess where they only compare themselves to other unionized teaching jobs. If instead they compared themselves to jobs with similar education requirements, job security, hours, benefits and vacation, they would shut their pie holes for a few decades while the market caught up.

 

[oomis]

TY for that.
Mostly public sector unions bad (too much power, their goals not aligned with the goals or society or teaching [in your analogy they would rather do well than do good], etc).
--- ok, agreed, for the most part. I think unions academically can be very important, because we have examples of what happens with right to work anti-union legislation in the states, however, I do see how unions get in their own way

Some teachers great.
--- more than ever. New teachers are committed to the kids, and many of the jaded cycnical ones are either leaving the profession because of the pandemic. Good ******* riddance.

A few teachers bad and protected by union.
---Hellz yeah

As a group, teachers could do great things, instead they are bashed back to lowest common denominator effort and do as little as possible for as much compensation as possible by the unions
---lots to unpack there. My eyes and personal experience tell me that there are many more teachers than is obvious going above and beyond and killing themselves because they know how badly kids need them right now. Any teacher who doesn't understand, appreciate and lean into this right now is at best in the wrong profession and at worst, well, them's a lot of bad words.

I AM one of those people who went back to school because I believe in the power of education to change lives, and I wanted to be a part of that somehow. There are lots of us out there.

 

[Wingboy]

I am a little biased. I have family that taught till way past retirement. We never got along. Self entitlement to an extreme. Haven't seen her in years. It's ok.

 

[oomis]

Re striking...

Do we think that teachers should never strike? Or that there's never a reason good enough to strike? Or that there's another mechanism for making political change?

My questions sound leading when I read them out loud, but I don't mean them to be. I'm not pro strike. But I am pro-change. And not smart enough to know how to split the difference, I guess.

 

[oomis]

I am a little biased. I have family that taught till way past retirement. We never got along. Self entitlement to an extreme. Haven't seen her in years. It's ok.

That I can completely understand.

 

[GreyGhost]

Re striking...

Do we think that teachers should never strike? Or that there's never a reason good enough to strike? Or that there's another mechanism for making political change?

My questions sound leading when I read them out loud, but I don't mean them to be. I'm not pro strike. But I am pro-change. And not smart enough to know how to split the difference, I guess.

Imo, there is a lot of talk about other issues but most of the strikes revolve around getting more money per member not education. The PS unions (especially police and education) refuse to acknowledge that there is not an unlimited budget. Almost everybody agrees that more bodies are beneficial in almost every way but the compensation has grown to an unmanageable level where it is hard for taxes to cover even a skeleton staff. Pull back individual comp by 20-40%, take that entire pool of money to bring in more bodies. Education system greatly improved, those that were only in it for the disproportionate income vs effort leave (huge victory, they were in it for the wrong reasons anyway), some teachers need to get summer jobs to fund the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

 

[Wingboy]

Re striking...

Do we think that teachers should never strike? Or that there's never a reason good enough to strike? Or that there's another mechanism for making political change?

My questions sound leading when I read them out loud, but I don't mean them to be. I'm not pro strike. But I am pro-change. And not smart enough to know how to split the difference, I guess.

Striking has become routine. It doesn't even matter which political party is in power.

 

[oomis]

Imo, there is a lot of talk about other issues but most of the strikes revolve around getting more money per member not education. The PS unions (especially police and education) refuse to acknowledge that there is not an unlimited budget. Almost everybody agrees that more bodies are beneficial in almost every way but the compensation has grown to an unmanageable level where it is hard for taxes to cover even a skeleton staff. Pull back individual comp by 20-40%, take that entire pool of money to bring in more bodies. Education system greatly improved, those that were only in it for the disproportionate income vs effort leave (huge victory, they were in it for the wrong reasons anyway), some teachers need to get summer jobs to fund the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

Just paraphrasing to make sure that I understand; teachers make too much money as a blanket statement?

Or, more specifically, teachers, as a whole, aren't worth the money they're paid?

 

[oomis]

Striking has become routine. It doesn't even matter which political party is in power.

This is the truth; one way of seeing that is that the education sector has always needed more than any government has been able to provide, though it's easy to have a field day with my statement... I'll still leave it out there

 

[sburns]

I believe the message /ads hearing on the radio are totally misplaced and if anything shines a negative light on teachers good and bad. We are in a pandemic, we need cooperation not division.

 

[Evoex]

Striking has become routine. It doesn't even matter which political party is in power.

Which If you think about it, is how it should be.

 

[GreyGhost]

Just paraphrasing to make sure that I understand; teachers make too much money as a blanket statement?

Or, more specifically, teachers, as a whole, aren't worth the money they're paid?

Mostly a) with some obvious exceptions (eg. EA make ~30-40% of teacher comp to do very similar job with slightly less education).

B is more complicated. The youth are the future, yadda yadda yadda, how do you put a price on that? In reality, if you look at total comp per week of work, I believe teachers are grossly out of line with private sector jobs requiring similar hours, education etc. If you have a backlog years long of people that want in, you know you are paying far too much. You need to pay enough to have a good pool to select from. I think they would still have that if they reduced total comp by 20-40% (and accurately discussed it not the BS that they publish press releases on that is salary only and doesn't take into account the huge amount of vacation that all teachers get that would be exceedingly rare in the private sector).

 

[Mad Mike]

Re striking...

Do we think that teachers should never strike? Or that there's never a reason good enough to strike? Or that there's another mechanism for making political change?

My questions sound leading when I read them out loud, but I don't mean them to be. I'm not pro strike. But I am pro-change. And not smart enough to know how to split the difference, I guess.

I would prefer a mechanism that replaces collective bargaining for gov't workers to something that reasonably ties benefits and pay to the private sector. I'd also make school a year round thing, and teaching the same. I can't justify public school teachers earning twice what a private school teacher or professional instructor earns.

The work year minimum to collect full compensation in Ontario is 996 hours, or about 1/2 the average for full time employees in any sector of the economy. Id be ok with re-setting the workweek from 26 to 37.5 hours and changing annual vacation entitlements to 5 weeks/year. This would allow year round options for students AND classroom sizes could be reduced by almost 1/2 without adding staff.

Finally, I'd remove PSUs from the political lobby space. No political radio/TV or print ads, ads, no funding dissident groups, no gov't funding.

 

[jc100]

Education = pay. Always has done for most paper qualifications based jobs. If you don’t like that idea go and get a teaching qualification and join them.

I've just finished my university level teaching for the academic year, I ramp up again in a week or so for the summer courses but I'm exhausted from this crappy academic year. Teaching isn’t just instruction, if you’re any way a half decent teacher you’re also invested in the general health and attitude of your students. Take away the whiny fringes and you have some students dealing with some very serious issues and you have to be a part of the help system for that. That can be gruelling. I'm not afraid to say that there have been times I’ve sat quietly with wet eyes and realized how insignificant my problems are compared to those of some of my students. I’m well paid but I earn every penny and had a very long path with a lot of work to get here. My email auto replies are on today and I’m going to do whatever I please for the first time in months before it all starts again.

Unions...occasionally they are built like some kind of young Marxist organization. I don’t like that aspect of some unions at all but the group negotiation aspect and the assistance they can give you has been invaluable to me. I've been a union rep, it didn’t go so well as I had issues with some of the overly PC actions but it was a useful experience seeing some of the grievance cases that we had to deal with. Those cases would not have had the same outcomes without a union.

 

[oomis]

Mostly a) with some obvious exceptions (eg. EA make ~30-40% of teacher comp to do very similar job with slightly less education).

B is more complicated. The youth are the future, yadda yadda yadda, how do you put a price on that? In reality, if you look at total comp per week of work, I believe teachers are grossly out of line with private sector jobs requiring similar hours, education etc. If you have a backlog years long of people that want in, you know you are paying far too much. You need to pay enough to have a good pool to select from. I think they would still have that if they reduced total comp by 20-40% (and accurately discussed it not the BS that they publish press releases on that is salary only and doesn't take into account the huge amount of vacation that all teachers get that would be exceedingly rare in the private sector).

Cool. Glad this is a discussion and not ranting.

Are we differentiating good teachers from bad, before we move forward? Or is it just all teachers. Because bad employees exist everywhere, so I' don't really see any argument that just focusses on bad teachers to be useful or productive; that's just ranting.

The problem with ranting is that usually, the rant is right. It's just talking about something small in a way that makes it seem much bigger than it is.

My starting premise is that teaching is hard, in a way that if you haven't done it (and yes, college is different from university is different from secondary is different from elementary is different from kindergarten is different from preschool), so much so that as a secondary teacher, I wouldn't opine on anyone else's part of the world. It really is too different and that comes from a place of firsthand experience and exposure.

I also think that teachers are paid appropriately, and my view comes from comparison to the white collar sector; having hired and fired a lot of comparable salaries.

Teaching is easy for bad teachers, but I'm not talking about those. The solution for those is self-evident, they have to be fired and in this respect, I fully believe that the union gets in the way. But for good teachers, they pour their hearts and souls into their kids. Into all of our kids, and that comes at a very real personal cost. The heroics I'm seeing from teachers; the heroics I went through to make the learning process as effective and efficient as I could make it during the pandemic; I mean, we all have stories, but my point is that good teachers consistently put their students first.

Also, can we just stop with the vacation? Good teachers (not talking about bad ones), and I mean this seriously, get NO vacation. Christmas break is spent prepping, marking and communicating. March break is the same; because teaching is WAY more than teaching. Their salaries are pro-rated, as I saw someone post earlier, so they're being paid for 10 months. Right? Does that escalate the argument that they're being paid too much? Well, I suppose it's fodder, but I'll stand by the fact that teachers, based on comparison and experience, are paid appropriately.

Proof? The desperate need for teachers right now. It's not like people are lining up to do this job anymore. Supply and demand points to the idea that maybe teachers need to be paid more. I don't agree with that; as I said I think it's appropriate.

 

[jc100]

I'll add one thing that hasn’t been mentioned much....

....some students can be absolute ***** and can make your life a misery just because they are evil little fuckers.....they are the minority though! There’s a lot of instructors/teachers that can’t deal with that.

Edit: my friend, a high school teacher, used to work in a school in Napanee and that was enough to make him wonder if he should change careers.

 

[oomis]

I'll add one thing that hasn’t been mentioned much....

....some students can be absolute ***** and can make your life a misery just because they are evil little fuckers.....they are the minority though! There’s a lot of instructors/teachers that can’t deal with that.

This. Some of your kids are ********. We all have our stories... and again, this is different than having a bad employee, because you can't fire a student. A good teacher sticks with them and works to make whatever changes they can make in their lives because teaching isn't just about curriculum or content.

I'll say it again. For a good teacher, teaching isn't just about curriculum or content. It's about building a person.

How much is that worth? If not everything, it's at least worth something.