Bye Bye Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

If your criteria to have him removed from Office NOW is the fact that he did something Illegal then he has yet to be charged of anything. In front of the law -According to your criteria- he should still be in office as he is.

The city was not compromised, he didn't do anything that caused harm to the city in relevance to blackmail. Potentially doing something is not actually doing something, but I will confess, I haven't follow every single issue brought forward on his investigation so if in fact he was blackmailed and he did something that will damage the city in relevance to being blackmailed then i regress

Ford admitted to doing something, actually several things, that are illegal. The two that bother me the most are doing crack and driving while under the influence. He doesn't need to be found guilty of anything in court, when he's already admitted to it.

Its funny how you are able to rationalize what Clinton did but yet you can not stand what Ford has done, I find that very interesting.

Saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" is the same as Ford saying "I might have done some crack cocaine during one of my drunken stupors, maybe around a year ago"

Ford implied he may or may have not while Clinton danced around a question and used a technicality to try and excuse a lie, they were both morally wrong when doing it and I personally don't care as long as they take care of the business of governing; In the other hand, you seem morally comfortable with that Clinton did, I think cheating on your wife shows less character than someone smoking crack cocaine but hey, we are all different.

Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice, he lied under oath on the Paula Jones case, the fact that the charge failed in the house is of no consequence, he lied under oath, as a matter of fact, this was the real cause why the investigation started.

Just to clarify as i know my tone most times comes out as if i am upset, I am not, this is an enjoyable conversation.

Let me remind you of my actual statement; "Doing the immoral is one thing and you're right, I'm not the sort of person who is likely to re-elect an immoral person."

 

[Roomie]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Ford admitted to doing something, actually several things, that are illegal. The two that bother me the most are doing crack and driving while under the influence. He doesn't need to be found guilty of anything in court, when he's already admitted to it.

Ok so by that logic next time I'm pulled over for speeding I just admit it and tell the cop not to write me a ticket because I came clean? Don't see that happening do you?

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Ford admitted to doing something, actually several things, that are illegal. The two that bother me the most are doing crack and driving while under the influence. He doesn't need to be found guilty of anything in court, when he's already admitted to it.



Let me remind you of my actual statement; "Doing the immoral is one thing and you're right, I'm not the sort of person who is likely to re-elect an immoral person."

How does Justin fit / not fit your statement. Remember, he has also admitted to doing something illegal........

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Ok so by that logic next time I'm pulled over for speeding I just admit it and tell the cop not to write me a ticket because I came clean? Don't see that happening do you?

You have obviously and completely missed my point. I'm saying that he doesn't need to be found guilty in order for there to be consequences to his actions. Given the context I'm obviously not saying that it should be ignored. I still believe that he should suffer legal ramifications also, though. We are, however, talking about rather serious crimes, not HTA issues. Impaired operation of a vehicle is a Criminal Code offense.

How does Justin fit / not fit your statement. Remember, he has also admitted to doing something illegal........

Where weed is concerned I consider it to be somewhat of a special case, and tend to class it with alcohol. As I've mentioned previously, elsewhere, the reasons why it is illegal are in no small part due to certain people not liking competition. If Ford just did a little weed then I'd likely say, "Meh" and move on. Consistently getting baked shows all of the same weaknesses of character as does consistently getting drunk off your nut, in my opinion. Casual use is like having a beer every now and then, and the world is changing to reflect this. I don't have many such exceptions but this is one, and I'm pretty damned consistent where it's involved.

And remember, John Tory has also admitted to having smoked weed.

 

[inreb]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Having smoked weed will be a badge of honour among politicians at some point in the near future. It'll be the new gay.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[daught]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Like I said before, why are we arguing for the lesser evil? Are we down between olivia and ford? All favorites suck.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_mayoral_election,_2014#Registered_candidates.

I'd pick Morgan Baskin. How bad can it go with a high school student? Sure she might get drunk and blow some guy on prom night, meh. Even if she does it on TO's money I bet she is a cheap drunk.


Sent from the future using my GOLDEN iPhone 30 SS

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

You have obviously and completely missed my point. I'm saying that he doesn't need to be found guilty in order for there to be consequences to his actions. Given the context I'm obviously not saying that it should be ignored. I still believe that he should suffer legal ramifications also, though. We are, however, talking about rather serious crimes, not HTA issues. Impaired operation of a vehicle is a Criminal Code offense.



Where weed is concerned I consider it to be somewhat of a special case, and tend to class it with alcohol. As I've mentioned previously, elsewhere, the reasons why it is illegal are in no small part due to certain people not liking competition. If Ford just did a little weed then I'd likely say, "Meh" and move on. Consistently getting baked shows all of the same weaknesses of character as does consistently getting drunk off your nut, in my opinion. Casual use is like having a beer every now and then, and the world is changing to reflect this. I don't have many such exceptions but this is one, and I'm pretty damned consistent where it's involved.

And remember, John Tory has also admitted to having smoked weed.

I understand. However, you are talking about morality and then give a pass to Justin (or Tory) for breaking the law and admitting it. Either breaking the law is immoral or it's not. Claiming one is a lesser evil doesn't change the fact that had they been regular joe's and got caught smoking it they would very likely have been charged and convicted. And conversely I'm not giving Blobster Rob a pass either. I do wish they would actually charge him and get all the speculation over with....

And btw, there a lot of things in society that pundits claim as "progress" where in fact it is society going hell in the proverbial hand-basket.........

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

I understand. However, you are talking about morality and then give a pass to Justin (or Tory) for breaking the law and admitting it. Either breaking the law is immoral or it's not. Claiming one is a lesser evil doesn't change the fact that had they been regular joe's and got caught smoking it they would very likely have been charged and convicted. And conversely I'm not giving Blobster Rob a pass either. I do wish they would actually charge him and get all the speculation over with....

And btw, there a lot of things in society that pundits claim as "progress" where in fact it is society going hell in the proverbial hand-basket.........

Actually no breaking the law is performing an illegal act, not necessarily immoral. One neither confirms, nor precludes, the other. I would say that using marijuana is illegal, but not necessarily immoral. Operating a vehicle while under the influence of marijuana would qualify as both illegal and immoral, as would operating a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol.

*EDIT* Admittedly there are those who make much the same argument for the legalization of even harder drugs which makes one wonder where the break point occurs.

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Actually no breaking the law is performing an illegal act, not necessarily immoral. One neither confirms, nor precludes, the other. I would say that using marijuana is illegal, but not necessarily immoral. Operating a vehicle while under the influence of marijuana would qualify as both illegal and immoral, as would operating a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol.

*EDIT* Admittedly there are those who make much the same argument for the legalization of even harder drugs which makes one wonder where the break point occurs.

You are drawing a line yourself by stating breaking the law for certain things is not immoral but in other cases it is. If you knowingly do something that is criminal, but do it anyways, how does that not have a morality consideration?

Is there anything in the chain of supply through which Justin received his drugs that was immoral?

There certainly are things that are legal that can be immoral, but I have a hard time saying that certain criminal activities are somehow morally okay.

 

[Schneller]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

There's a world of diff between illegal and immoral.

If you think smoking weed is immoral because it is illegal (currently) in Canada, does it cease to be immoral in Colorado where it is not illegal?

Sorry Mike, but I feel your thinking is not very deep if its simply: it's illegal so it's immoral.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

You are drawing a line yourself by stating breaking the law for certain things is not immoral but in other cases it is. If you knowingly do something that is criminal, but do it anyways, how does that not have a morality consideration?

Is there anything in the chain of supply through which Justin received his drugs that was immoral?

There certainly are things that are legal that can be immoral, but I have a hard time saying that certain criminal activities are somehow morally okay.

And you're creating a link where there isn't necessarily one. I can't say if Justin received his marijuana in a way that involved immorality as I don't know if it was home grown, gang supplied, or something else. I'm stating the the consumption of marijuana, in and of itself, is not necessarily an immoral act. That's where I start and stop.

Parking on a side street in Toronto, for 4 hours, is illegal. Is it immoral? Laws are frequently made in order to reduce the social pressure of living in high density areas. They are also frequently made to cover blanket situations, where there can be a rather broad range of issues included. They don't necessarily consider morality at all.

For example the very law that we are discussing here. We have a blanket law stating that possession and consumption of marijuana is illegal. Setting aside the issue that Big Alcohol didn't want the competition from something that you could grow in your own back yard, there's the fact that government wants to have the ability to pursue Organized Crime for trafficking in it. This still brings the home grower, who has a couple of plants for personal consumption, under the same umbrella as the organization that co-opts a brewery as a grow op. Some governments are sane enough to see the hypocrisy in this. I don't know if it's still the case but previously Alaska, for example, permitted the growing and use of marijuana in the home. They still had bans on sales, trafficking, etc.. This seems, to me at least, to be a rather intelligent way of handling the situation. The problem is that it involves the application of reason and common sense, where governments and large organizations tend to prefer zero tolerance. You know; the complete inability to see either scale or reason in a given situation.

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

There's a world of diff between illegal and immoral.

If you think smoking weed is immoral because it is illegal (currently) in Canada, does it cease to be immoral in Colorado where it is not illegal?

Sorry Mike, but I feel your thinking is not very deep if its simply: it's illegal so it's immoral.

I'm not trying to be "deep". I actually think it's quite simple. Do a criminal act is both illegal and immoral. If it's not immoral then why is it illegal? Ya ya, Justin will make it legal because it shouldn't be illegal therefore it's not immoral.

So again, performing some illegal acts is immoral but other illegal acts isn't. Seems a bit circular in logic.....

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

I'm not trying to be "deep". I actually think it's quite simple. Do a criminal act is both illegal and immoral. If it's not immoral then why is it illegal? Ya ya, Justin will make it legal because it shouldn't be illegal therefore it's not immoral.

So again, performing some illegal acts is immoral but other illegal acts isn't. Seems a bit circular in logic.....

No more so than the assumption that everything illegal is also immoral. When counter examples can clearly be presented, it's obviously not the case.

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

And you're creating a link where there isn't necessarily one. I can't say if Justin received his marijuana in a way that involved immorality as I don't know if it was home grown, gang supplied, or something else. I'm stating the the consumption of marijuana, in and of itself, is not necessarily an immoral act. That's where I start and stop.

Parking on a side street in Toronto, for 4 hours, is illegal. Is it immoral? Laws are frequently made in order to reduce the social pressure of living in high density areas. They are also frequently made to cover blanket situations, where there can be a rather broad range of issues included. They don't necessarily consider morality at all.

For example the very law that we are discussing here. We have a blanket law stating that possession and consumption of marijuana is illegal. Setting aside the issue that Big Alcohol didn't want the competition from something that you could grow in your own back yard, there's the fact that government wants to have the ability to pursue Organized Crime for trafficking in it. This still brings the home grower, who has a couple of plants for personal consumption, under the same umbrella as the organization that co-opts a brewery as a grow op. Some governments are sane enough to see the hypocrisy in this. I don't know if it's still the case but previously Alaska, for example, permitted the growing and use of marijuana in the home. They still had bans on sales, trafficking, etc.. This seems, to me at least, to be a rather intelligent way of handling the situation. The problem is that it involves the application of reason and common sense, where governments and large organizations tend to prefer zero tolerance. You know; the complete inability to see either scale or reason in a given situation.

Please note that there is a difference between a criminal activities and non-criminal such as parking. Having said that, if you are knowingly doing something that is forbidden whether criminal or not, how is that not immoral?

There is no doubt that the marijuana issue is a loaded one. But as you already pointed out where do you draw the line. There are arguments that can go pretty far beyond alcohol and marijuana.

Justin and Tory and Ford all admitted to a criminal act. They should all be treated equally, either let them all off or nail them all. But trying to justify one and not the other has a smell of other biases (for some others around here no doubt political....)

 

[Snobike Mike]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

No more so than the assumption that everything illegal is also immoral. When counter examples can clearly be presented, it's obviously not the case.

Remember I'm dense. I need some examples of what is illegal that you would consider not to be immoral if one commits said crime besides marijuana?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Please note that there is a difference between a criminal activities and non-criminal such as parking. Having said that, if you are knowingly doing something that is forbidden whether criminal or not, how is that not immoral?

There is no doubt that the marijuana issue is a loaded one. But as you already pointed out where do you draw the line. There are arguments that can go pretty far beyond alcohol and marijuana.

Justin and Tory and Ford all admitted to a criminal act. They should all be treated equally, either let them all off or nail them all. But trying to justify one and not the other has a smell of other biases (for some others around here no doubt political....)

That depends on whether you consider 'breaking the law' and 'crime' to be the same thing. Performing an illegal act, which is a term you've been referencing, is breaking the law. Now if we're going to get into the whole nuance of non 'criminal' illegal behaviour versus crimes, then we get into that same head space that I've been talking about anyway.

We know that Ford has been photographed with gang members and drug dealers. We know that he has operated a vehicle while under the influence of alcohol, by his own admission. Apparently there are other revelations to come, if the product of Operation Traveler ever comes to a criminal charge.

By comparison what do we know about people like Trudeau and Tory? Simply that they consumed an illegal substance.

As I said before; scale.

 

[ZX600]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

No more so than the assumption that everything illegal is also immoral. When counter examples can clearly be presented, it's obviously not the case.

What you are saying now is different that your previous post implying that cheating on your wife is not immoral! or that it isn't as immoral as smoking crack cocaine

 

[inreb]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Lots of funny reading now. Too many times in the past certain people point to law books- "the rules are the rules are the rules" to "win" an arguement. A lot of stuff falls into moral v law v use your best judgement. Regret not caring enough to keep examples handy. Not that it would make any difference.

 

[ZX600]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Lots of funny reading now. Too many times in the past certain people point to law books- "the rules are the rules are the rules" to "win" an arguement. A lot of stuff falls into moral v law v use your best judgement. Regret not caring enough to keep examples handy. Not that it would make any difference.

Get your facts straight, the internet is serious business

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Re: BY By Tommy boy Ford kicked out!!

Get your facts straight, the internet is serious business

I'm pretty sure they've made a special dispensation for GTAM.