Bicycle Protests

[Dirty Frank]

That's why I advocate for more cameras. The operator of the camera gets 30% IIRC while the city pockets 70% without paying police salaries for every location 24/7/52.

These 50 cameras effectively save the city up to $27 million in labor costs while generating 70% of the tickets as revenue.

Ever notice that those red light cameras tend to get located where it is cheaper and easier to install those devices rather than where statistics of collisions and such are higher but installing cameras would be pricier?

 

[backmarkerducati]

Remember the long gun registry, that was simple and supposed to cost $2M, what did it balloon to??? $2B? Did it take any illegal gun activity off the streets? Why repeat it for other items? Schadenfreude? You guys are just campaigning for yet another fat government boondoggle.

The manufacturing of plates will cost money. Offices to hand them out or courier will cost money. No plates you say, then it is useless. The IT hardware to store the data will cost money. The creating of the online portal will cost money. The maintenance for the hardware and portal will cost money. The constant maintenance of the database will cost money. The new department full of government workers, benefits and pensions will cost money. The enforcement will cost money. and on it goes. Fantasy land that any of this will results in anything other than big government wasting money!

The counter argument, this time the government will do it differently??????????????????????????

 

[Dimitri]

The manufacturing of plates will cost money.

License plates literally cost the province $3.60 each. The joys of prison labor.

Despite Ford promises, failed Ontario licence plates increased costs by 26 per cent

Although Premier Doug Ford said changing Ontario’s licence plates wouldn’t cost taxpayers anything, the new plates ended up costing taxpayers an extra $238,621.

www.taxpayer.com

 

[backmarkerducati]

License plates literally cost the province $3.60 each. The joys of prison labor.

Despite Ford promises, failed Ontario licence plates increased costs by 26 per cent

Although Premier Doug Ford said changing Ontario’s licence plates wouldn’t cost taxpayers anything, the new plates ended up costing taxpayers an extra $238,621.

www.taxpayer.com

Costs are more than the manufacturer but sure, the city run prisons.... I guess the prisoner IT department is top notch.

 

[Dimitri]

Costs are more than the manufacturer but sure, the city run prisons.... I guess the prisoner IT department is top notch.

Plates are made by Trilcon a Crown Corp that the city can contract to just as the province does.

Don't need a new IT department. Run it in the TPS's current IT department don't need to pay extra for property to host a server and babysitting just some unused rack space.

And with nearly 400,000 regular utilitarian cyclists in the city who'd need to be plated at the minimum. Just an initial $10 fee gives a budget of $2.5 million for hardware and initial software development after you pay for the plated.

This is totally doable.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Plates are made by Trilcon a Crown Corp that the city can contract to just as the province does.

Don't need a new IT department. Run it in the TPS's current IT department don't need to pay extra for property to host a server and babysitting just some unused rack space.

And with nearly 400,000 regular utilitarian cyclists in the city who'd need to be plated at the minimum. Just an initial $10 fee gives a budget of $2.5 million for hardware and initial software development after you pay for the plated.

This is totally doable.

That is no where near enough for IT items needed which includes portal (UI) development and portal upkeep etc. Plus staff etc. BTW, TPS will not just let them "add it on" inside the current budget, and they are even more expensive than the city! Then just look at the plate sticker renewal for Ontario for ballpark numbers. Printing stickers, SO and processing were costing more than the ~$1B they were taking in (so they said). Sure this is smaller but expect minimal government cost of the better part of $50 to $100 per bicycle based on this (so $20M to $40M/year--your 400K bicycles) based on what happens in the real world.

Yep, more waste and boondoggles, that will solve everything.

 

[Soulcatcher668]

Plates are made by Trilcon a Crown Corp that the city can contract to just as the province does.

Don't need a new IT department. Run it in the TPS's current IT department don't need to pay extra for property to host a server and babysitting just some unused rack space.

And with nearly 400,000 regular utilitarian cyclists in the city who'd need to be plated at the minimum. Just an initial $10 fee gives a budget of $2.5 million for hardware and initial software development after you pay for the plated.

This is totally doable.

I do not know where your faith in the government creating a streamlined efficient system came from, it is not backed by history.

 

[Dimitri]

That is no where near enough for IT items needed which includes portal (UI) development and portal upkeep etc.

Hardware is $5,000.
Web Portal on the high side $50,000.
Database Integration say another $50,000.

Let's round to $250,000 assuming government pork.

That's $2.25 million that can be transfered to TPS to cover their electricity costs and maintaining an extra 4U server.

I do not know where your faith in the government creating a streamlined efficient system came from, it is not backed by history.

Government projects can be efficient when you repurpose internal employees on secondment rather then declaring and starting a whole new department. At least my buddies who work in government tell me that works.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Hardware is $5,000.
Web Portal on the high side $50,000.
Database Integration say another $50,000.

Let's round to $250,000 assuming government pork.

That's $2.25 million that can be transfered to TPS to cover their electricity costs and maintaining an extra 4U server.



Government projects can be efficient when you repurpose internal employees on secondment rather then declaring and starting a whole new department. At least my buddies who work in government tell me that works.

Your numbers are way off and likely based on consumer grade HW if based on anything. Give us one example of a government web portal that only cost $50K, multi platform at that? I know dozens that exceeded seven figures.... Hell the basic COVID app was over $3.5M.... just for the app.

I would be shocked if the yearly SLA on the HW was only 5K!

One more thing we have not touched on. The millions in waste advertising (sorry educating) to get people to use it.

Fantasy land, and real world government project numbers support this analysis. I for one do not support more big government waste and it cannot be justified by low balling numbers just to create it. But if that is what you want, so be it, I do not have to agree that wasting taxpayers money is a good thing.

 

[Mad Mike]

Your numbers are way off and likely based on consumer grade HW if based on anything. Give us one example of a government web portal that only cost $50K, multi platform at that? I know dozens that exceeded seven figures.... Hell the basic COVID app was over $3.5M.... just for the app.

I would be shocked if the yearly SLA on the HW was only 5K!

One more thing we have not touched on. The millions in waste advertising (sorry educating) to get people to use it.

Fantasy land, and real world government project numbers support this analysis. I for one do not support more big government waste and it cannot be justified by low balling numbers just to create it. But if that is what you want, so be it, I do not have to agree that wasting taxpayers money is a good thing.

They could fund it from the High Park rider infraction ticket revenue.

 

[backmarkerducati]

They could fund it from the High Park rider infraction ticket revenue.

That money is already earmarked for the TPS donut slush fund.

 

[GreyGhost]

They could fund it from the High Park rider infraction ticket revenue.

One source says that cyclists got 16 tickets since the beginning of 2021. Not sure if that is high park only or all of Toronto. Also seems suspiciously low so I wonder if that is HTA tickets and they are going crazy with by-law tickets that don't show up in the stats.

 

[nobbie48]

I do not know where your faith in the government creating a streamlined efficient system came from, it is not backed by history.

I tend to agree with you. The civil service doesn't have the profit or bankruptcy decision hovering over their heads. Privatization hasn't worked well in Ontario recently.

 

[Dimitri]

Also seems suspiciously low so I wonder if that is HTA tickets and they are going crazy with by-law tickets that don't show up in the stats.

They have used bylaw officers there to ticket cyclists so likely. Plus...

“Although bicycles are designated as vehicles under the Highway Traffic Act, cyclists are not subject to the speed limits set by the Act, which apply only to 'motor vehicles,'” Ian Brisbin, a lawyer in Ontario and founder of VeloLaw.ca explains. But there is an added wrinkle. “The City of Toronto has, however, set the speed limit for 'vehicles, motorized recreational vehicles, bicycles and personally powered vehicles' within parks as 20km/h. Toronto is near alone as a major Canadian city enforcing speed limits upon cyclists, and it is worth asking why. Where does this directive come from?”

Should Police Officers Hand Out Speeding Tickets to Cyclists?

Toronto’s High Park is the site of contentious debate between cyclists and police

www.bicycling.com

 

[nobbie48]

They have used bylaw officers there to ticket cyclists so likely. Plus...

Should Police Officers Hand Out Speeding Tickets to Cyclists?

Toronto’s High Park is the site of contentious debate between cyclists and police

www.bicycling.com

The reason for the change is the attitude of privilege. When common sense was more prevalent we didn't need as many laws.

 

[Dimitri]

The reason for the change is the attitude of privilege. When common sense was more prevalent we didn't need as many laws.

That privilege and lack of common sense permeates across all road users in this city.

Look at Bay Street. Right lane is only buses, cyclists, motorcycles and taxis. Every self-entitled driver blocks it every day driving on it or using it to stand during rush hour. So much so that the left lane actually moves better.

Look at the taxi I was in yesterday who ran the open streetcar doors on Bathurst street as people were getting off.

Or the guy on an e-bike on the side walk that nearly took out my 5 year old because he was in a rush to pick up an Uber Eats order last night.

We need all cyclists plated and registered, all scooter e-bikes licensed, plated and insured.

We need every school zone, every red light, every street car, cross walk, (Edit: ) HOV lane and full stop to have automated camera enforcement of the rules of the road.

When all road users stop getting tickets because they stop acting like d**ks on the road. Then maybe we can discuss turning the 400 series highways into the autobaun and giving cyclists in High Park a high speed zone.

 

[Wingboy]

That privilege and lack of common sense permeates across all road users in this city.

Look at Bay Street. Right lane is only buses, cyclists, motorcycles and taxis. Every self-entitled driver blocks it every day driving on it or using it to stand during rush hour. So much so that the left lane actually moves better.

Look at the taxi I was in yesterday who ran the open streetcar doors on Bathurst street as people were getting off.

Or the guy on an e-bike on the side walk that nearly took out my 5 year old because he was in a rush to pick up an Uber Eats order last night.

We need all cyclists plated and registered, all scooter e-bikes licensed, plated and insured.

We need every school zone, every red light, every street car, cross walk, (Edit: ) HOV lane and full stop to have automated camera enforcement of the rules of the road.

When all road users stop getting tickets because they stop acting like d**ks on the road. Then maybe we can discuss turning the 400 series highways into the autobaun and giving cyclists in High Park a high speed zone.

Going forward with your suggestions just makes an expensive province even more so.

 

[Dimitri]

Going forward with your suggestions just makes an expensive province even more so.

Not really, look at the speed cameras. The provider gets a 30% cut to provide and maintain them. Private-Public partnerships can work, generate revenue for both parties and cost the cities and provinces little to implement.

Will it cost road users who are self-entitled privileged morons in fines? Sure. But good.

 

[GreyGhost]

Not really, look at the speed cameras. The provider gets a 30% cut to provide and maintain them. Private-Public partnerships can work, generate revenue for both parties and cost the cities and provinces little to implement.

Will it cost road users who are self-entitled privileged morons in fines? Sure. But good.

That skips all the administration and logistics regarding plating every road user. Does that get farmed out to the camera operators too? That's a lot of personal information in the hands of a private (probably foreign based) corporation.

Looking purely at enforcement, I am inclined to agree with you with the caveat that some ******** are rich and their behaviour will not be affected by fines. There needs to be another layer at some point (number of automated tickets, cumulative excess speed, single large exceedance, etc) where they get a summons and are told that future tickets will result in license suspension. Not sure how they deal with corporate vehicles. Suspend the plates? New plates are cheaper than paying tickets.

 

[Dimitri]

That skips all the administration and logistics regarding plating every road user. Does that get farmed out to the camera operators too? That's a lot of personal information in the hands of a private (probably foreign based) corporation.

DUI mobiles should be licensed. They are simply electric limited speed motorcycles. That's not an additional cost that's something that should have been done from the start.

Plates cost $3.60 each from Trilcon. If every plate is sold by bike shops for $10 that's a decent mark up to cover distribution of the plates. Plus the sale of some sort of bracket/mount. Bike shops will be laughing to the bank.

Adding the registrations to the TPS database and creating a web portal to register your plates shouldn't cost a fortune. But apparently even if we secondment staff for development and get TPS's Radio/IT services to babysit it some think it will cost billions.

Going to be easy to enforce now that police departments are spending millions on automated plate readers because we dropped stickers. Any cyclist without a registered plate will flag at no additional cost.

Factor in the current average of 360 tickets per month per camera at an average $104.30 that's $1.3 million cut for the city every month from 50 cameras.

Increase the camera count to 1,000 drop the "Speed Camera" posted signs. And the city stands to make the billions supposedly needed to host a single database.