Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[Rick CH]

Can you elaborate on this?

From the Ontario Climate Change Action Plan:

2.2 Eliminate HST on zero emission vehicles

Ontario will work with the federal government to explore ways to provide full-HST relief to purchasers of new battery electric vehicles, with the objective of introducing this relief by 2018.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/climate-change-action-plan#section-4


So, you can see no promises are made, other than to "explore ways" to provide the tax relief.

 

[PrivatePilot]

From the Ontario Climate Change Action Plan:

[h=4]2.2 Eliminate HST on zero emission vehicles[/h][FONT="]Ontario will work with the federal government to explore ways to provide full-HST relief to purchasers of new battery electric vehicles, with the objective of introducing this relief by 2018.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/climate-change-action-plan#section-4

[/FONT]

"By 2018". Hasn't yet happened.

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one - free overnight residential charging was also mentioned as a goal, but that too is nowhere to be seen.

If the government changes as well (which we should all hope happens), nothing is guaranteed either - the new government could toss *everything* EV (including the $14K rebate) out the window, we don't know. I'd hedge my bets on the possibility of the $14K rebate going away before holding on waiting for anything additional....or at the very least, wait until after the election and see what happens - if the liberals lose, then buy buy buy. If not, then who knows.

 

[blackcamaro]

Do any leases have a residual value clauses where the value at turn in time can hit you with a surcharge? Years ago a friend got hit because the vehicle he was turning in had suddenly become unpopular or there was a glut and he had to make up for it.

There's two types of leases. The common ones on new vehicles and leased through the manufacturer are known as walk a way leases. Those if you stay within the mileage allowance and bring back the vehicle at end of term without damage you just hand the keys back regardless if the vehicle is worth more or less then the residual value. You do have the option to purchase the vehicle for that residual value. You can often buy lease end protection with is sort of insurance to cover damages on the vehicle which it sounds like MXS did.

The other leases are open ended where the customer ultimately is responsible if the vehicle is worth less then the residual value at the end of term. You will see these leases on used vehicles or in the case of a company such as landscaper leasing a fleet which are often through independent leasing companies. However the lease company cannot charge more then the total of 3 months payments to make up any loss if the vehicle is worth less then the residual, this only holds true for private consumers. If it's leased in a company name they can be charged the whole amount.

 

[PrivatePilot]

So, despite my last reply, I just saw some more info on the tax situation.

Seems the tax reduction is expected in the federal budget coming this week, and many are expecting the provincial govt to follow suit and perhaps eliminate the provincial side as well.

IF they don't touch the $14K rebate on the provincial side at the same time (they may rob peter to pay paul, who knows) this would bring the total cost reductions (between no taxes and the $14K rebate) to an incredible $20,000 on a $50K Bolt.

Bolt orders could soon go through the roof.

 

[shanekingsley]

So, despite my last reply, I just saw some more info on the tax situation.

Seems the tax reduction is expected in the federal budget coming this week, and many are expecting the provincial govt to follow suit and perhaps eliminate the provincial side as well.

IF they don't touch the $14K rebate on the provincial side at the same time (they may rob peter to pay paul, who knows) this would bring the total cost reductions (between no taxes and the $14K rebate) to an incredible $20,000 on a $50K Bolt.

Bolt orders could soon go through the roof.

Is this supposed to be with PHEV like the Volt as well? or only fully electric?

I was hoping to go to the auto show, but I think it may be better to go to that EV Discovery Centre on Finch.

 

[PrivatePilot]

From what I've read, BEV only, so the Volt may not apply.

 

[shanekingsley]

^^Thanks!
Went to the EV centre today and test drove the Volt and Bolt. I liked them both for different reasons and disliked them both for different reasons. I think I am still leaning towards getting the Volt however.

A few questions that I didn't get answered there, because the guy that was helping us happened to be kinda new:

When I get down to charging at home, I will leave the car outside not in a garage. Any of you charging outside and not in a garage? If so, what type of chargers did you get and from where?
Are there any concerns with respect to towing?

 

[PrivatePilot]

The included Clipper Creek L1 charger that comes with the Volt (Which actually happens to be, with a little conversion cable and a 240V plug a decent L2 charger - it's dual voltage) is actually weatherproof, so you don't have to worry about that. The J1772 design is also safe to use in exposed conditions by design.

Towing is "not recommended" in the manual, but people do it without issues anyways, but it will of course kick your range in the butt. The key is reasonable weights - towing a camper or something is probably unwise, but lots of people pulling utility trailers with a MC on them, single Jetskis, etc, no issues. Google "Chevy volt towing" and you'll find lots of threads on the topic, and a Google Image Search will also yield photos.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Out of curiosity, what were your likes and dislikes about both the Volt and the Bolt?

 

[shanekingsley]

Thanks for the info about the chargers that come with the Volt. I didn't know that they could be converted to support faster speeds. For me, the L1 speed would be too slow because 6-8 hours charging time would be the slowest I can handle.

Sorry - by towing I meant if the car had a problem at the side of the road, are there any issues with it being picked up by a tow truck?

Volt: I liked the driver experience overall. The whole front seat and passenger seat were good and the car handled just fine. The controls were easy to find and navigate. The rear seat was cramped and not suitable for someone 6' or taller for a moderately long drive of 2+ hours. In the back seat, I felt like the top of my head was an inch or two under the ceiling and if the car went over a big bump I might hit my head on the roof or the rear window. My wife felt claustrophobic in the back and also disliked the rear side windows which are pretty small. I disliked the view out the rear window. I drove a Premium model and really disliked the black/tan trim inside, but that is something easily selected otherwise.

Bolt: I disliked the driver experience ergonomically. It felt a little cramped for me up front and made of cheap materials. I found the front seat pretty uncomfortable and couldn't really see myself driving this car for long trips - maybe fiddling with it a bit more could find a better position. If I was a little smaller it would probably be great. I did like the sightlines and vision to see around me as I drove. It felt quite spacious inside and airy compared to the Volt. The rear seat was also quite comfortable and spacious. It felt like it had slightly better pickup than the Volt with pedal to the metal. I think if I had more seat time in this car I would grow to like it more as a driver.

Both were good cars and worthwhile additions to the EV line-ups.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Yes, the 110V unit that comes with Second gen Volts and all Bolts can indeed be fed 240V and work fine as a L2. They only put out about 12A@240V vs the 16A the car can actually handle, but it's still well over twice as fast as a 110V charge so it's win-win.

The required adapter to convert from any 240V plug to the "standard" NEMA5-15 plug on the EVSE will make an electricians head explode, but changing the plug on the EVSE isn't possible as there's a temperatures sensor in there that it won't work without. As well, leaving it with the standard plug keeps it's portability, so when you travel somewhere you can still bring it along and use it on any standard 120V circuit at your destination.

Interesting observations on both the Volt and the Bolt, thanks for sharing. For comparison purposes it may be interesting to go check out a Clarity if you can find one at a Honda dealer as well. Reviews I've seen have been good, but long-term reliability is still unproven...and yeah, there's the appearance.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Oh, as for towing, not really an issue. There's actually a GM supplied PDF doc for the Gen1 that gives particulars for tow truck drivers for Gen1 Volts, I'm sure the same exists for Gen2's - print it out and keep it in the glove box for reference. Nothing particularly special aside from the fact that a flatbed is suggested - more so because they ride low and with the front way up in the air the back will be lower yet, but they CAN be towed by any traditional tow truck in the end with just the front wheels in the air, if need be. They can't be flat-towed.

 

[SunnY S]

Volt: I liked the driver experience overall. The whole front seat and passenger seat were good and the car handled just fine. The controls were easy to find and navigate. The rear seat was cramped and not suitable for someone 6' or taller for a moderately long drive of 2+ hours. In the back seat, I felt like the top of my head was an inch or two under the ceiling and if the car went over a big bump I might hit my head on the roof or the rear window. My wife felt claustrophobic in the back and also disliked the rear side windows which are pretty small. I disliked the view out the rear window. I drove a Premium model and really disliked the black/tan trim inside, but that is something easily selected otherwise.

Bolt: I disliked the driver experience ergonomically. It felt a little cramped for me up front and made of cheap materials. I found the front seat pretty uncomfortable and couldn't really see myself driving this car for long trips - maybe fiddling with it a bit more could find a better position. If I was a little smaller it would probably be great. I did like the sightlines and vision to see around me as I drove. It felt quite spacious inside and airy compared to the Volt. The rear seat was also quite comfortable and spacious. It felt like it had slightly better pickup than the Volt with pedal to the metal. I think if I had more seat time in this car I would grow to like it more as a driver.

Both were good cars and worthwhile additions to the EV line-ups.

Try a Clarity, you will be blown away by comparison, far more refined, and roomy, and upscale.

Some have an issue with the looks, keep in mind its a design with purpose and function, Like most Hondas, the styling will grow on you.

seen a few on the road, and they look great.

 

[shanekingsley]

^^ Thanks.
The battery range is less than I would like though. The Volt is already right at the low edge of what I'm willing to go with - it's why I was considering the Bolt as al electric all the time is preferable for my commute.

I'm also not a fan of the way it does not have a full electric mode, where the gas can kick in at any point during acceleration if you pass the mid-push accelerator point, which I am likely to since . Since I'm getting one of these cars anyways, my goal is to have a car that can be all electric until the battery is drained.

I agree that the interior is much nicer than the Volt, especially the back seat and overall trim. The reality for me is that 90% of the time, I will be the only one in this car and we have another car for back seat comfort, so the front cabin area is more important than the back seat.

That said, I will still go to the dealerships this week and see the Bolt, Volt and Clarity before deciding.

 

[Joe Bass]

Hey @shanekingsley did you decide against the Prius?

Sent from the purple GTAMotorcycle.com mobile app

 

[SunnY S]

That said, I will still go to the dealerships this week and see the Bolt, Volt and Clarity before deciding.

I'd also add the new Nissan Leaf to that list as well. although it has slightly lesser range than the Bolt, I believe its a better built and overall better vehicle.

if you can wait a bit longer, they have a longer range Leaf coming with 60kwh battery pack which should equal or better the current Bolt.

 

[shanekingsley]

Hey @shanekingsley did you decide against the Prius?

Yeah I did because of its low all electric range. It would be good for some people.

Sunny: can't wait for the new Leaf and I don't want the current model, when the new one is just around the corner. So it's really just between the three I listed earlier.

 

[mxs]

IF they don't touch the $14K rebate on the provincial side at the same time (they may rob peter to pay paul, who knows) this would bring the total cost reductions (between no taxes and the $14K rebate) to an incredible $20,000 on a $50K Bolt.

I am going to be a skeptic here ... no way they will stack up the three rebates in a such a way basically giving you essentially 40% off the car price. I will believe it when I see it.

Just because the 14K is already unprecedented, I believe, in any country applying some sort of a rebate (don't count Norway, which taxes heavily gas cars ...). So for them, to go as high as you pointed out, it would definitely pour more gasoline into a fire of a province bleeding left and right. I know it's a spit in a deficit bucket with EV ownership sitting where it is, but .... a) it's a principal thing for many ... b) Ontario doubled their EV sales from 2016 to 2017 ... we know all why that is for 90% of buyers, so in another works 14K is working, keep any other rebates to fund the road infrastructure funded by a gas tax, I don't contribute to.

What I am trying to say, is that any further EV vehicle rebates are not really necessary. What is necessary a dramatic improvement in the EV infrastructure, so that is where this Ontario government should be putting serious money in. And that includes, fast charging and apartment building, mainly the old ones which require some form of not so inexpensive retrofit

 

[PrivatePilot]

I am going to be a skeptic here ... no way they will stack up the three rebates in a such a way basically giving you essentially 40% off the car price. I will believe it when I see it.

I highly doubt it either, but I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

The federal government eliminating HST (and the provinces may follow suit with their portion) would unify things a little more across the provinces. At this point there's little to no rebate in some provinces, whereas others offer big ones. In the end I suspect Ontario may stay more or less where it sits now, but other provinces that currently get squat will at least see something now.

Anyhow, back on the topic of car options, my issues with the new Leaf and the Clarity is the fact that both are completely unproven at this point, and most concerning is the continuing lack of battery thermal management on the 2018 Leaf. I would not want to be a first-year guinea pig for ANY car, much less an EV. The current gen Volt has been around for going on 3 years now so the kinks are worked out, and the Bolt has been around for a year now and has a good solid track record over that period as well, with minor kinks having been worked out and now being taken care of on the production line.

 

[shanekingsley]

A coworker friend of mine who has been driving the EV's for what feels like 10 years said she had placed her order for and was due to receive her Bolt in June. When I was at the dealership today the sales guy said the Bolt was about 9 months away from customers taking delivery, so if I ordered one today it would come near the end of the year. Are they really that far behind on orders?

They had a bunch of Volt's there, but they all had the leather seats which I don't want. Some of the options I do want are only available if I get leather seats as part of the Premier package. Say what?

I'm going to visit a few other dealerships over the coming days.