I love my subaru. It's not easy on gas, and the maintenance is a little more expensive than typical japanese....but you may be able to remedy that by not getting a WRX.
Good bang for your buck if you buy used.
another car thread
- Thread starter SunnY S
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I love my subaru. It's not easy on gas, and the maintenance is a little more expensive than typical japanese....but you may be able to remedy that by not getting a WRX.
Good bang for your buck if you buy used.
Why?
Something like the 'Dart' (for an example purpose only) has been in pre-production (R&D) for anywhere from 5 - 10yrs.
Hardly a "first year" unit, although it is in it's "first year" for the public to purchase.
You guys don't realize that all vehicles are "first year" models. Several make changes mid-year. (not as common as it was in the past).
Just because the exterior may (or may not) have subtle changes, there are numerous changes with every model year that are not plain to see by eyeballing / test driving the unit. (hardware, wiring, etc etc change EVERY year).
For every inferior issue they try to resolve, they create 2 more (as model years carry on), so in reality, a 1st yr run unit may be much better than the 4th yr run unit. YMMV.
Same mind set as when you hear someone say: "I'll never buy a car that was built on a Monday". Guess what? Every car on the road was built on a Monday (and Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday). Every unit spends anywhere from about 8 to 15 business days from start to finish on the assembly line.
There's no such thing as a vehicle being built in a day. Not in North America anyway.
IOW's - there is nothing more to fear by purchasing a 1st yr run vehicle, than a 2nd, 3rd or 4th yr run.
This site can be useful, as it is kept going by people like us - not an agency, or govt:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/
mma01
Well-known member
Another vote for a subie. Sure, they are a bit thirsty, but you get amazing traction in the winter and they are very reliable (EJ series motors are commonly used in aircraft applications). In my experience, they seem to have better corrosion resistance than other japanese cars as well.
OpenGambit
Banned
Sorry, but there is truth in not buying a first year model. While obviously any new car is in development and testing for many years before release (in Colorado, I met a guy whose job it was just to drive a car for 8 or 10 hours, then hand it off to the next guy, he was driving a preproduction Elantra), you can't simulate test data like tens of thousands of vehicles being driven on the road in every environment imaginable. Especially since some problems don't even show up until some time or mileage has passed.
I've seen it first hand from the dealership side. Whenever there is a brand new model, there are always some issues (most of the time minor, sometimes major) in the first batch of cars that get resolved as they come to light. For instance, customer had an early vin '12 Camry (first year of this model) that had a clicking noise from the sunroof area. It could only be duplicated on extremely hot days, and of course his car was black. Took a while, but working with Toyota engineering, they figured out some shims to space the sunroof track to stop it. I'll bet you anything that newer cars will not have this problem. My car, a second year RSX has a clicking noise from the dashboard because it rubs on the windshield. The fix is to re and re the windshield to install a rubber spacer, which unfortunately was never done by the previous owner under warranty and I don't care enough to do. Later year RSX's had the fix from the factory. I have numerous similar examples
Minor parts are always changing year to year, even without a redesign, but it's a different ballgame when it's a totally brand new design. Seeing multiple manufacturers release many new vehicles, and the reliability of those vehicles as the design ages. I would much rather have a last year of a design vs a first year. Doesn't mean that first year are useless, but for the most part, you are going to get a more reliable (sometimes only a little, sometimes a lot) vehicle the more mature it is.
The Korens' have really made an impression with me. (Kia and Hyundai) Sharp styling inside and out. And they have established a good following and reliability is on par with anything else in the market.
I've visited quite a few VW dealers and have yet to find one that made me feel "welcome". And I have to say, I love their products and kinda regret not pulling the trigger on TDI wagon earlier this year. If you find the dealership experience good and find something in your price range, I'm sure you'll enjoy what they have to offer.
Subie's are great machines.
I really like the new Focus too.
Mazda hasn't turned my crank in some time now.
I know and read all the reports on Nissan but, I tell you from the last 3 years at my work, everyone that has gone with an Altima has been very pleased with the performance, features and reliability. The 2013 looks great too. Although, I have to say, Nissan's service intervals of 6k for an oil change a bit of a pain.
Cheers.
I've visited quite a few VW dealers and have yet to find one that made me feel "welcome". And I have to say, I love their products and kinda regret not pulling the trigger on TDI wagon earlier this year. If you find the dealership experience good and find something in your price range, I'm sure you'll enjoy what they have to offer.
Subie's are great machines.
I really like the new Focus too.
Mazda hasn't turned my crank in some time now.
I know and read all the reports on Nissan but, I tell you from the last 3 years at my work, everyone that has gone with an Altima has been very pleased with the performance, features and reliability. The 2013 looks great too. Although, I have to say, Nissan's service intervals of 6k for an oil change a bit of a pain.
Cheers.
If you're considering the turbo in that car, then that's a logical explanation. It will still be a "first year" unit with the turbo.
Respectfully - I disagree.
I'll bet the sunroof shim fix creates 1 or 2 more problems. Give it time - the motor that controls the sunroof was designed to open and close without the shim fix - remember that in 2 - 3 yrs when they refuse to close, and it starts raining. (after the warranty runs out, of course).
I'm retired now, but I'm speaking from 28 yrs experience building vehicles & seeing the parts "come and go" during every / any given model year.
I too, had the unfortunate task (for as long as I could stand it, with a 'suit' in the passenger seat) of running units (~8 hours / day) from Oakville to Windsor and back on a daily basis, in order for the company to decide what to fix, and what to pass on to the customer.
My F150 (2nd yr of model) had a similar problem as your RSX. The 'fix' is to relocate the 'sponge like spacer' that fits between the dashboard and windshield. I had mine done under warranty. I don't expect it to last, but so far, it's good.
i always keep forgetting them
OpenGambit
Banned
As I was saying, the issue wasn't that its the "first model year", its that the turbo option doesn't exist.
The shims were maybe .5-1mm thick, maybe it'll cause a problem, I doubt it though. If it does, they're going to have a lot of black Camry owners in the southern states that are going to be ****** off, this wasn't an isolated complaint.
I respect your experience, but unfortunately mine has shown me differently (nine years on my end, third of yours, but still). I can think of tons and tons of issues that were resolved as the model matured (I could list some, but doubt anyone cares). I can only think of a few that showed up later in a vehicle's model cycle.
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Valid point, and I didnt make the OP clear.
This car isnt for "me". At this point in my life, I won't buy any car that costs less than $50g. This is for a family member out buying her first car and wanted to try something other than a Civic cause "everyone" has one.
Selection criteria, hmmmm. It has to be quality, built well, and will be kept for a long time. Must come from a reputable brand and have generally positive reviews. When recommending, I tend to start with Asian cars as IMHO, they are built better and offer better value overall.
The reviews on the Mazda 3 looked real good.......until we sat in one and took it for a spin. Really didnt light the fire. Interior was a disappointment. Built in Japan is a plus.
Loved the CX5 as stated, but it was too much car for her. More room and utility than she would need, fantastic dash/interior.
Headed over to the Honda dealer, and compared to the 3, doing back to back test drives... the Civic is simply better in the ride and room department. We did the Si first, but she deemed it too sporty for her needs, and didnt like that it needed prem gas. The EX-Leather was more her type. Far more features like Leather, NAV, bluetooth, heated seats, etc etc. excellent value, nicer dash with the colour info screens. Some fantastic rebates too which brings the price down significantly. Made in Canada, eh! After a test ride, it was clear how this thing has been Canadas best selling car for 16 years or so?
The VWs are nice. Won't touch a Jetta, but the Golf is nice. The cost and value quotient isn't there compared to the Asian cars AND, even bigger issue, the VWs have suspect reliability. Her friends at work have em, and apparently servicing and parts on them is pricey. Still an appealing car though, and I like that its built in Germany! We'll be trying one next weekend. (As a side note, I have a german bike, and was leery about quality issues when I bought it, and sure enough, it had a few issues, and freakin expensive for parts.)
We did a Corolla test drive not that long ago.... it really needs a full redo. Worse overall car than the Mazda 3.
As for the others.......
In this category
Nissan Sentra
-I dont think I've ever seen a Sentra finish better than near last place in a comparison test.
Subaru Impreza
-Nice car, but the dash is low rent.
Chevy Cruze
-GM, no thanks.
Dodge Dart
-Fiat "quality" is atrocious. When is Dodge going to stick to a small car name.... Omni? Neon? Caliber? Colt? now Dart? O boy.
Ford Focus
-Like..... Ford is really shining brightly now. Too early to predict long term reliability on this model.
Hyundai Elantra
-Needs chassis improvements and long term quality is suspect.
Kia Forte
-A poor mans Hyundai?
Suzuki SX4
-These guys didnt go out of business yet?, Sorry, but don't feel like gambling on this model.
Now you gotta say what features are important for the fam member (gas mileage, driveability (fun), safety, winter driving, price range, etc etc)"
They have certainly come a looooong way.
However, they really need to hire a few chassis engineers from Mazda or Honda to get some more zoom zoom in the ride and handling department.
Long term reliability is still a question mark.
But thanks to the attractive pricing of the Koreans, the Japanese car pricing has been priced aggresively. Wasn't always like that.
Subaru hands down over any Hyundai.
The Outback is likely the only Subaru I'd consider buying.
Re the "first year" situation ...
Unfortunately, all that manufacturer testing doesn't turn up all of the real world issues. Some of them will be sorted out, others won't be, but of the ones that won't, in this day and age it will become known on the internet and people can make up their own minds about whether a particular vehicle then becomes a permanent "do not buy" or whether it's decent. Usually a year is enough to flush out most of these issues. I've driven VW diesels for years but I won't buy a 2009-onward Golf or Jetta common-rail TDI because of two major issues that VW has not fixed ... the intercooler-freezing issue, and the high-pressure fuel pump failure issue. The current Passat TDI has a fix for the first issue (liquid-cooled intercooler) and there are design changes in the fuel injection system to address the second, and there are much fewer reports of HPFP problems for that car. So at least for me, Golf/Jetta TDI are "do not buy" but the Passat is OK (although I'm less than enthusiastic about the bland, copy-of-Chevy-Impala styling).
I will agree that Hyundai/Kia needs chassis tuning help but it appears that they have been getting better. But Honda (of late) are not who they should be copying ... late model non-SI Civics are a mess of understeer and overassisted, uncommunicative steering, because it appears that Honda has been copying Toyota, and the Corolla is even worse in this regard. I've had a Mazda 3 as a rental car and found it to be okay but it did not live up to the hype (but this was a base-model skinny-tires rental-car spec that had been beat on). The Ford Focus comes darn near best in class and that was a rental-spec model, too.
Unfortunately, all that manufacturer testing doesn't turn up all of the real world issues. Some of them will be sorted out, others won't be, but of the ones that won't, in this day and age it will become known on the internet and people can make up their own minds about whether a particular vehicle then becomes a permanent "do not buy" or whether it's decent. Usually a year is enough to flush out most of these issues. I've driven VW diesels for years but I won't buy a 2009-onward Golf or Jetta common-rail TDI because of two major issues that VW has not fixed ... the intercooler-freezing issue, and the high-pressure fuel pump failure issue. The current Passat TDI has a fix for the first issue (liquid-cooled intercooler) and there are design changes in the fuel injection system to address the second, and there are much fewer reports of HPFP problems for that car. So at least for me, Golf/Jetta TDI are "do not buy" but the Passat is OK (although I'm less than enthusiastic about the bland, copy-of-Chevy-Impala styling).
I will agree that Hyundai/Kia needs chassis tuning help but it appears that they have been getting better. But Honda (of late) are not who they should be copying ... late model non-SI Civics are a mess of understeer and overassisted, uncommunicative steering, because it appears that Honda has been copying Toyota, and the Corolla is even worse in this regard. I've had a Mazda 3 as a rental car and found it to be okay but it did not live up to the hype (but this was a base-model skinny-tires rental-car spec that had been beat on). The Ford Focus comes darn near best in class and that was a rental-spec model, too.
Yeah it was more expensive than the others so i didnt include it in the choices.
The interior of the impreza is now with soft touch plastic which is an "upgrade" but its more for the driving experience / awd.
Safety ratings are 5 stars
So she'll be safe while she drives and enjoy it (mostly during winter!)
And also be safe if she has an accident.
This is true... every gen of Civic seems to be losing the "drivers car" perspective which IMHO, is surrendered to the Mazda 3, but I totally understand why.... Honda is looking for mass market appeal, ala Corolla. It must be working cause sales are through the roof as cost concious buyers are looking to downsize on fuel economy, but still want a roomy car. Civic interior is cavernous, esp the rear seat.
Apparently, apparently, the 2013 new Accord, early indications are that his model is the way "Honda used to be" and they just might be getting their mojo back.
Agree with you on the Focus.... would like to see long term quality on this car.
Arguably the 2 best cars in this segment......
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-ford-focus-se-vs-2012-honda-civic-ex-comparison-test
The Focus seems to be more boy racerish and driver oriented which is great for guys like us. The Civic looks to be better suited to chicks, old people, and family.
Cant go wrong with either one!
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The elantra was not built with zoom zoom in mind, more for fuel economy. Its not gutless at all tho, comparing it with the cars u mentioned, 130hp.
The only thing I regret about the elantra is handling, but u can't have it all. I've got so many features. Like 4 heated seats, 4 disk brakes, etc.
I'm sure handling can be improved by suspension upgrades
Re: focus, the price is not attractive and its not as roomy. U can't fit a full size adult in the back. For the elantra u can, very surprising for it class. There is plenty of legroom
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EXR
Well-known member
Subie's are great cars...built well. I got my wife a 2010 Legacy gt..while it doesnt get civic/corolla mpg's, its pretty decent. Having to run premium is a ***** (funny thou, look into all the jap full size sedans and most require it), but having a turbo makes it worth it. Awd might not make sense now, but wait a few months. 10L/100km is decent in my books.
It's funny, people ***** about mpg's like its tax...however seeing the number of mini-vans and suv's out there it makes you wonder....
It's funny, people ***** about mpg's like its tax...however seeing the number of mini-vans and suv's out there it makes you wonder....
