50 shot dead - Orlando shooting

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FiReSTaRT said:
Actually, the founding fathers meant it in the most extreme way, as in having private citizens form their own, well regulated militia, as capable as any modern army, with battleships and the latest modern weaponry. Today it would translate into privately-owned aircraft carriers. Firearms themselves were more of an aside, along the lines of "people need to have unrestricted access to guns, so they can get comfortable with them and it's easier to incorporate them into those private militias". That's the gist of the actual ideas behind the 2nd amendment based on the writings by the founding fathers of the United States. Another poster also tore down your "muskets yes, AR's no" argument because that would be like limiting free speech to town criers and hand-cranked presses (but not electrically operated presses because they didn't exist). You really don't want to use the founding fathers' motivations as a basis for gun policy if you're an anti-gunner :cool:



There are approximately 30,000-35,000 gun deaths in the US every year (2/3 suicides and most of the rest are gangbanger on gangbanger homicides). There are 100,000 cases of legitimate use of firearms in self-defence where a firearm was used to kill or wound the attacker. There are another 700,000-1,500,000 annual cases where the law-abiding American defended him/herself either by brandishing the firearm or by firing a warning shot without hitting anyone. Check the stats before spewing liberal propaganda if you don't wanna appear gullible and ignorant :)
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Well thanks for the insults. I actually was just pointing out the 2nd amendment has no bearing on peoples right to own guns, but is continually interpreted that way by many including yourself. In fact in the us a well regulated militia would be the national guard. Not a bunch of pussys with machine guns under their pillows. Not very regulated I say. Anyways, Its a dated document that could use an update.

Your stats are much different than what I found on us gov't website but none the less more guns equals more gun violence. Plain and simple. I don't know why anyone would argue that. Its not liberal propaganda dude, it just makes sense. Btw, by your stats one in 300 people in the us have used a gun to defend themselves in one year!. I'm willing to bet the last 300 people i've met plus the 300 people they all know have never used a gun for self-defense.
In the us, the place with the most criminals and most guns, but not the most people it's propaganda to say having guns causes more deaths...not buying it. I'm an open guy always willing to revise my outlook but I haven't been convinced having guns for anything other than hunting makes sense...maybe one day?
 
defeater905 said:
Well thanks for the insults. I actually was just pointing out the 2nd amendment has no bearing on peoples right to own guns, but is continually interpreted that way by many including yourself. In fact in the us a well regulated militia would be the national guard. Not a bunch of pussys with machine guns under their pillows. Not very regulated I say. Anyways, Its a dated document that could use an update.

Your stats are much different than what I found on us gov't website but none the less more guns equals more gun violence. Plain and simple. I don't know why anyone would argue that. Its not liberal propaganda dude, it just makes sense. Btw, by your stats one in 300 people in the us have used a gun to defend themselves in one year!. I'm willing to bet the last 300 people i've met plus the 300 people they all know have never used a gun for self-defense.
In the us, the place with the most criminals and most guns, but not the most people it's propaganda to say having guns causes more deaths...not buying it. I'm an open guy always willing to revise my outlook but I haven't been convinced having guns for anything other than hunting makes sense...maybe one day?
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The lowest number of self-defensive uses of firearms (as I noted in another post), touted by Liberal propagandists was in the 55,000-80,000 ballpark. When you consider the fact that they have about 10,000 gun homicides a year, I'd say that any rational CBA would indicate that guns are definitely keeping them safer. I never bought the "no guns = no suicides" argument. Where there is a will, there is a way. Just look at the gun-free utopia - Japan - whose suicide rate is higher than the US suicide and homicide rates put together.

If you look at the top countries in terms of gun ownership rates, they'll trend toward the bottom of the homicide rate list. That's mainly because countries where a large segment of the population owns firearms are typically countries with a well-developed middle class, good healthcare and fewer people driven to desperation by extreme poverty. I've noticed that countries in the same Gini neighbourhood also have similar homicide rates. Even though it's generally a very good indicator, the US homicide rate is a lot lower than the average for that neighbourhood that also includes Russia, Trinidad and Tobago, Uruguay, Congo.. Regular people having the means to defend themselves against the criminal element might be a contributing factor there.

By the way, read about Ian Thomson and tell me how guns are only useful for hunting :)
 
I love when the antis try to twist or deny what the 2nd amendment is. The Constitution works around the theory of natural laws, inherent to every human and existing by default. The first and second amendments are worded carefully and explicitly. They don't "grant" those rights, they prevent the government from TAKING THEM AWAY.

Its okay to be anti guns, its a reasonable ideology however flawed in practical terms. But don't BS anybody about the 2nd amendment.
 
I'm neither anti or pro, I do own guns and no longer hunt. I understand those that hunt, its their thing and thats ok. I do target shoot.
I also live on occasion in the US, and own guns in the US. Its more effort to get a library card than to buy a 12 g , I had to show municipal utility bill to show residency and my passport # since I do not have a US social sec # and provide a varifiable Phone #. To join the local library.
Buying a 12g required my Mastercard. The next was at a "gun show" , read that as flea market and was a cash sale, there is no paper trail at a US gun show, you can buy anything from a .50cal barret sniper rifle on down. There is no reasoning with a lot of the US citizens, the gun control doesnt have to mean no guns but they absolutely need to put some checks and balances in place on obtaining one. If you really want a gun to be a sportsman you should wait a year on a list to get one, maybe somebody within that year could decide guns are not for you, check what you watch on youtube and who you hang out with. But if you check Craigslist in most American areas on a given day there are dozens for sale for cash. I'm not sure its fixable.
 
FiReSTaRT said:
The lowest number of self-defensive uses of firearms (as I noted in another post), touted by Liberal propagandists was in the 55,000-80,000 ballpark. When you consider the fact that they have about 10,000 gun homicides a year, I'd say that any rational CBA would indicate that guns are definitely keeping them safer. I never bought the "no guns = no suicides" argument. Where there is a will, there is a way. Just look at the gun-free utopia - Japan - whose suicide rate is higher than the US suicide and homicide rates put together.

If you look at the top countries in terms of gun ownership rates, they'll trend toward the bottom of the homicide rate list. That's mainly because countries where a large segment of the population owns firearms are typically countries with a well-developed middle class, good healthcare and fewer people driven to desperation by extreme poverty. I've noticed that countries in the same Gini neighbourhood also have similar homicide rates. Even though it's generally a very good indicator, the US homicide rate is a lot lower than the average for that neighbourhood that also includes Russia, Trinidad and Tobago, Uruguay, Congo.. Regular people having the means to defend themselves against the criminal element might be a contributing factor there.

By the way, read about Ian Thomson and tell me how guns are only useful for hunting :)
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I think if you do a little more research, you'll find that there is no hard data.
Much like the original position, the fallback position is made of smoke and mirrors.

Also, if you look up top countries, you should find that they have more gun control in effect than the U.S.
Not every country sees themselves as a wild frontier.
 
The blinkered effort put forth defending the USA gun situation tells you all you need to know about the type of people defending the USA gun situation. Right turn, Clyde.
 
Baggsy said:
I think if you do a little more research, you'll find that there is no hard data.
Much like the original position, the fallback position is made of smoke and mirrors.

Also, if you look up top countries, you should find that they have more gun control in effect than the U.S.
Not every country sees themselves as a wild frontier.
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He's using the numbers frequently cited by anti-gun advocates as a minimum.

50 thousand defensive gun uses per year in a country with 300+ million people is conservative to say the least.
 
mmmnaked said:
He's using the numbers frequently cited by anti-gun advocates as a minimum.

50 thousand defensive gun uses per year in a country with 300+ million people is conservative to say the least.
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Both groups seem very willing to pull numbers out of thin air. A conservative wild guess is still a wild guess.
 
CruisnGrrl said:
40 million americans suffer mental illness, some of them have access to mental health care, all of them have access to guns
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inreb said:
The blinkered effort put forth defending the USA gun situation tells you all you need to know about the type of people defending the USA gun situation. Right turn, Clyde.
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Well said, the mental health thing is funny.

Btw- We live in Canada no 2nd amendment. The Constitution when written stating all men are equal still allowed slaves and the ppl writing/signed it owned slaves. Clearly it's a document based on spirit and intentions at that period of time. It demonstrates their lack of foresight on certain manners.
The people signing the document with their quill pens clearly could not envisions television much less tanks, WMD's, fighter jets, machine guns, etc...

Smart and logical people have the ability to evolve with time and recognizing there is the known unknown.
That story about the library card vs. buying the gun is stupid and funny at the same time.

The ore you guys write the more you look like a bunch of paranoid scared ppl.
Think of what you are saying, WE NEED GUNS to protect ourselves (ALL types of GUNS)
Yet the leftward liberals you deem as weaklings do NOT need guns to live....funny that.

It's amazing that people are asking for basic sensible control yet that is asking too much for a background check.
You want to carry a gun in public but don't want to register it with the govt. because it's none of their business YET the car you drive is registered with the govt.

Even the parents of the kids that were SLAUGHTERED, little bodies shredded by bullets are not saying NO guns, they just want some sensible control and limits.
 
I don't need guns I just want guns. Given the choice its a no brainer. Why wouldn't you wanna tuck a rifle and some ammo away in your attic just in case? An adult man can't trust himself with a gun? THATS scary, lol
 
mmmnaked said:
I don't need guns I just want guns. Given the choice its a no brainer. Why wouldn't you wanna tuck a rifle and some ammo away in your attic just in case? An adult man can't trust himself with a gun? THATS scary, lol
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Your life must be one giant contradiction. You seem to live in fear and paranoia.

Tucking a rifle and some ammo away is a lot different than wanting to open carry with ANY gun ANYWHERE at ANYTIME.
The rest of us can't trust ADULTS and CHILDREN with guns. Hell a fair amount of you blow your brains out or get shot by your own guns.
A group of guys at bar drinking and carrying guns...what can go wrong because you know, guys never get into fist fights over stupid carp much less fighting over a girl, likewise for women fighting each other.
 
Quote where I said anything about open carry? Maybe I was sleep-posting again
 
mmmnaked said:
I don't need guns I just want guns. Given the choice its a no brainer. Why wouldn't you wanna tuck a rifle and some ammo away in your attic just in case? An adult man can't trust himself with a gun? THATS scary, lol
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What about the other guy, though?
 
mmmnaked said:
Quote where I said anything about open carry? Maybe I was sleep-posting again
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I guess he's making the parallel with the current situation in a bunch of states.

That what you want (gun in the attic), is not always what is happening in the US of A.
 
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