Yet another shooting in the USA

[promac]

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Two points:

Trafficking of illegal guns, that are either purchased or stolen in Canada, is far less prevalent than trafficking in illegal guns from the US. If not for their lack of controls, we wouldn't have as many illegal guns on the street.

Because of our controls, it is more likely that someone who is purchasing guns and then selling them illegally will be caught.

As I have said, it would appear that our system works. If the US actually had a Federally based system I would say that it didn't work, but they don't have such a system.

The controls in Canada have no effect on illegal gun trafficking. You could buy as many as you wish & obliterate the serial numbers or circumvent the gun registration system entirely. Demand for illegal guns will create a market - it's that simple. If illegal guns didn't come from the US, more would come from other countries. Guns are no different than illegal drugs. People will continue to break laws & circumvent controls.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ci-rc/reports-rapports/traf/index-eng.htm

 

[promac]

The notion that CCW would result in random robberies by law-abiding citizens is hilarious. I have guns, I can easily conceal a pistol whenever I want and I'll bet 1 million dollars that I'd never get busted for it.

Why haven't I robbed or killed anyone yet :lol:.

So true! Most remarkable is the higher incidence of handgun violence in Canada compared to long-gun violence. You'd think that such strict controls on handguns would reduce it far below that of the more loosely controlled long-guns, but it doesn't. Strict Canadian gun controls never stopped the Dawson College shooter. Fortunately, people like that are an anomaly.

 

[sonnythebull]

A modest example is that in Europe, the hand signal used when talking about a murder is a hand chop, like the motion of a hatchet. In the US and Canada, it's pointing the index finger and triggering the thumb to mimick a gun.

So remember when I give you the finger I really want to finger your butt

 

[fastar1]

Demonizing & prohibiting the lawful/defensive use of guns only gives advantage to violent criminals by ensuring victims will be unarmed. Creating a culture of fear of lawful guns & gun owners is counter-productive and pathetic.

Are you sure this isn't just your fantasy? The romantic notion that you can shot your way out of any problem in your life, the same feeling that draws people to worship movies like Dirty Harry, Falling Down, Die Hard, etc...

If "unarmed vicitms" were a problem in any place other than your head, then where are all the stories of people thwarting crimes with their guns versus those that commit crimes with them. If there were more instances of people preventing or detracting criminal activity than people being victimised by guns, as sonnythebull suggested, then you'd have to believe that the US would have at least twice as many homicides if there were stricter gun laws there, or Canada, Australia, or England would have half as much if there were more lenient gun laws there.

While that's not an impossible hypothesis, it would beg the question "What the hell makes the US so violence-prone despite their lax gun culture?" The more reasonable explanation is that their gun culture contributes to the problem. The fact that gun-related homicides are so outside the norm would support that explanation.

Who gives a flying ****** what people do with their hands? At the very least, it can be a warning sign for others that a situation needs to be diffused or avoided.

It's in indicator of the difference in cultural mindset, specifically how far we are along the path of cultural acceptance of guns in North America. Another indicator is the graph above. Another indicator would be the types of cultural products each country produces.

If you don't give a flying f*** about how cultural acceptance of guns runs very deep in N.A. then you're missing perhaps the biggest part of this whole discussion.

 

[fastar1]

So remember when I give you the finger I really want to finger your butt

I just hope you never shake your fist at me.

 

[fastar1]

The controls in Canada have no effect on illegal gun trafficking. You could buy as many as you wish & obliterate the serial numbers or circumvent the gun registration system entirely. Demand for illegal guns will create a market - it's that simple. If illegal guns didn't come from the US, more would come from other countries. Guns are no different than illegal drugs. People will continue to break laws & circumvent controls.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ci-rc/reports-rapports/traf/index-eng.htm

Demand and supply define a market. There is demand for nuclear dirty bombs, for example, but no market. So of course controlling supply has an impact on the market. If there were "no effect" as you said then we can abolish all controls and nothing would change!

However I do believe that controlling demand would be a much more effective way of controlling the market, if possible. This is where reducing the cultural acceptability of firearms plays a role. Same thing with the cultural acceptability of drugs in Muslim nations.

BTW, what was that link supposed to show?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Demand and supply define a market. There is demand for nuclear dirty bombs, for example, but no market. So of course controlling supply has an impact on the market. If there were "no effect" as you said then we can abolish all controls and nothing would change!

However I do believe that controlling demand would be a much more effective way of controlling the market, if possible. This is where reducing the cultural acceptability of firearms plays a role. Same thing with the cultural acceptability of drugs in Muslim nations.

BTW, what was that link supposed to show?

I don't know what it's meant to show, but this comment was rather telling of the data presented:

"The majority of seizures occur at land border ports of entry where the firearms are either concealed in hidden compartments in personal vehicles or duct-taped to the body. However, the occasional seizure does take place in the postal system, which is commonly used by smugglers to ship disassembled firearms or firearms parts which are not considered under Canadian legislation as firearms."

If they haven't been sold to their ultimate destination yet, what are the odds that an association can be made?

 

[fastar1]

The notion that CCW would result in random robberies by law-abiding citizens is hilarious. I have guns, I can easily conceal a pistol whenever I want and I'll bet 1 million dollars that I'd never get busted for it.

Why haven't I robbed or killed anyone yet :lol:

Probably because you have more to lose than to gain. But society isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. Sure, there is a very clear and well defined delineation between "law-abiding" and "criminal", but those are legal definitions, they are not descriptions of the real world.

There are some segments of society that are on the fringe, having little to lose but trying to hold on to their morals by avoiding criminal behaviour. So they make the exact same value assessment as you, and for now they deem that they also have more to lose (morals) that to gain (money). But the tipping point is close, and less stringent gun laws would tip the scales in two ways; by making it easier to acquire guns, and primarily by making it more socially acceptable to use them in order to feed themselves.

There are all sorts of ways they could "justify" (make excuses for) themselves, imagining themselves as crusaders for their families, or blaming "the system" for being corrupt just like bikers do when they justify running from the cops. The very next step is to say it's OK to shoot back while you're making a break for it. The pigs are part of the problem, after all.

Which brings to mind another way people can get pushed into criminal gun use. If they've already been labeled as criminals by the justice system then it's not a big leap to take another step further into criminality and resorting to gun violence.

But to bring it back to your black and white way of expressing things, "The notion that CCW would result in random robberies by law-abiding citizens" is a real risk, and it is anything but hilarious.

 

[mmmnaked]

Your last comment is just sensationalist BS. Show me some alarming statistical probability that supports your view and I'll ponder it. Otherwise you're just yelling for the sake of making noise. You're the one being black and white.

And like I've said before, we have pretty loose gun laws as far as Im concerned yet there are only ~200 firearms homicides per year in Canada. Last I checked, armed robberies and assaults aren't a "huge" problem in Canada. Shootings, to me, are statistically insignificant in this country. 200 dead for 35,000,000? Sounds like a damned safe place to live!!

 

[jc100]

Your last comment is just sensationalist BS. Show me some alarming statistical probability that supports your view and I'll ponder it. Otherwise you're just yelling for the sake of making noise. You're the one being black and white.

And like I've said before, we have pretty loose gun laws as far as Im concerned yet there are only ~200 firearms homicides per year in Canada. Last I checked, armed robberies and assaults aren't a "huge" problem in Canada. Shootings, to me, are statistically insignificant in this country. 200 dead for 35,000,000? Sounds like a damned safe place to live!!

It is...hence why you don't need to carry a concealed weapon.

 

[mmmnaked]

It is...hence why you don't need to carry a concealed weapon.

I doubt I'd carry one anyway. It'd be a nuisance, and I'm pretty well-practiced with a holster myself already. The less stuff I have to carry on a daily basis, the better.

It would suck to need one and not have it, but for me personally the odds just don't seem high enough to warrant lugging a gun around everywhere. Its risk/reward I guess! But I don't look down on people who carry guns legally, nor do I consider them paranoid or in a state of fear. It's just a personal choice they've made.

 

[jc100]

I doubt I'd carry one anyway. It'd be a nuisance, and I'm pretty well-practiced with a holster myself already. The less stuff I have to carry on a daily basis, the better.

It would suck to need one and not have it, but for me personally the odds just don't seem high enough to warrant lugging a gun around everywhere. Its risk/reward I guess! But I don't look down on people who carry guns legally, nor do I consider them paranoid or in a state of fear. It's just a personal choice they've made.

As I've said before, I like guns and have no problem with gun owners. The whole concealed carry thing for the average citizen though IS fear, what else can it be? In Canada that fear is unwarranted. In other parts of the world that fear is a little more warranted perhaps. As Fastar also mentions, there's a cultural aspect that is very important too. I like where Canada is right now...I think it's just about right regarding gun controls. I would hate to see Canada make the mistakes the US has made.

 

[fastar1]

Your last comment is just sensationalist BS. Show me some alarming statistical probability that supports your view and I'll ponder it. Otherwise you're just yelling for the sake of making noise. You're the one being black and white.

Are you referring to my last post, or just the last sentence? It's useful to be clear so I can respond more appropriately.

And like I've said before, we have pretty loose gun laws as far as Im concerned yet there are only ~200 firearms homicides per year in Canada. Last I checked, armed robberies and assaults aren't a "huge" problem in Canada. Shootings, to me, are statistically insignificant in this country. 200 dead for 35,000,000? Sounds like a damned safe place to live!!

Then you agree with;

...going to a US model, if you will pardon the (censored) language, would be one of the most incredibly ****ing god damned stupid things that we could do.

and;

No, carrying a gun in one of the safest countries in the world doesn't make sense to me whatsoever.

and;

The US is the problem, not us.

and you disagree with;

IMO, the concept of CCW permits for lawful people is brilliant - effectively a mine-field for violent criminals.

and;

I believe that guns have saved more people than killed them especially in the places where carry conceal is allowed.

 

[mmmnaked]

I do not agree with going to a "US model" ( whatever that is)

I do agree that my neighborhood and country are safe enough for ME not to want to carry a gun. I do not push that belief onto others nor do I judge them for wanting to carry a gun.

I AGREE that guns in the hands of citizens can serve as a deterrent to criminals, and make a valid justification for CCW.

I agree with allowing Canadians to carry firearms, IF there was a stringent course and mandatory re-qualifications at least twice per year. Cops are ordinary people and they carry firearms, theres no reason we cant be trusted with them too if provided the same level of training.

And lastly, the likelihood of a fire in my house is extremely low but I still keep extinguishers near by.

 

[OpenGambit]

I do not agree with going to a "US model" ( whatever that is)

I do agree that my neighborhood and country are safe enough for ME not to want to carry a gun. I do not push that belief onto others nor do I judge them for wanting to carry a gun.

I AGREE that guns in the hands of citizens can serve as a deterrent to criminals, and make a valid justification for CCW.

I agree with allowing Canadians to carry firearms, IF there was a stringent course and mandatory re-qualifications at least twice per year. Cops are ordinary people and they carry firearms, theres no reason we cant be trusted with them too if provided the same level of training.

And lastly, the likelihood of a fire in my house is extremely low but I still keep extinguishers near by.

US model varies across states. but essentially means fully automatic weapons, background checks vary, no licencing requirement.

 

[mmmnaked]

F/A is heavily regulated in the US. No imports are allowed and no new manufacture is allowed for civilian use. What they have done is to stop new supply and completely drive up prices of what fully-automatic firearms there still exist in the market. These guns are prohibitively expensive and are essentially collector pieces. As far as Im concerned they have no bearing at all on criminal statistics.

The rest of what you said is mostly right, in SOME parts of the country. In other parts their rules are actually even tighter than ours, and Americans can't get many guns which we can legally posses here, such as very short barrel rifles and shotguns.

I hate discussing firearms and statistics on a national level when it comes to the USA. The regulations down there vary wildly from state to state and even between cities.

 

[promac]

Are you sure this isn't just your fantasy? The romantic notion that you can shot your way out of any problem in your life, the same feeling that draws people to worship movies like Dirty Harry, Falling Down, Die Hard, etc...

Fantasy? Romantic notion? I don't think so. If Canada loosened CCW restrictions and allowed permits, I'd probably get one, but I probably wouldn't bother to CCW. It would do a psychological number on violent criminals - the prospect that anyone could be carrying. Nonetheless though, it's clear the paranoia and delusion only exist in your mind - typical distrustful & hoplophobic hysteria. Carrying a weapon is for self defence - not looking for trouble or vigilante justice as you suggest.

If "unarmed vicitms" were a problem in any place other than your head, then where are all the stories of people thwarting crimes with their guns versus those that commit crimes with them. If there were more instances of people preventing or detracting criminal activity than people being victimised by guns, as sonnythebull suggested, then you'd have to believe that the US would have at least twice as many homicides if there were stricter gun laws there, or Canada, Australia, or England would have half as much if there were more lenient gun laws there.

In Canada, CCW is unobtainable, except in the rarest of cases. How is one to measure the effect of being able to defend oneself if it is unlawful to carry a weapon for self defence? Secondly, violent crime averted by an armed victim is hardly newsworthy, unless the assailant is seriously wounded or killed which is rare.

While that's not an impossible hypothesis, it would beg the question "What the hell makes the US so violence-prone despite their lax gun culture?" The more reasonable explanation is that their gun culture contributes to the problem. The fact that gun-related homicides are so outside the norm would support that explanation.

There are many reasons for violence in society. Lax gun culture isn't one of them. After all, murder is illegal. What is interesting is that gun related homicide in Canada per 100,000 is still higher today than it was in the early 60's when there were lots of guns and virtually no gun control. Perhaps the marked increase in gun homicide beginning in 1966 was a result of Lester Pearson's large dose of socialism.

It's in indicator of the difference in cultural mindset, specifically how far we are along the path of cultural acceptance of guns in North America. Another indicator is the graph above. Another indicator would be the types of cultural products each country produces.

If you don't give a flying f*** about how cultural acceptance of guns runs very deep in N.A. then you're missing perhaps the biggest part of this whole discussion.

It's not the cultural acceptance of guns in society that matters. It's lawful, safe and responsible use of guns and other tools that should be part of Canadian culture - not paranoia, distrust and fear mongering.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Please don't forget that the "psychological number" it might do on criminals would be to kill you first, then pick over your corpse.

 

[OpenGambit]

"Perhaps the marked increase in gun homicide beginning in 1966 was a result of Lester Pearson's large dose of socialism."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[rutakin]

another mass shooting, to keep the 1 a week streak going...

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1246493--several-people-shot-outside-empire-state-building

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