Brown is the leader of the Ontario PCs. You seem to be confusing him with Scheer, federal Conservative leader.
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Wynne down to 11% rating/popularity. Lowest ever. Can she get into single digits?
- Thread starter -D-
- Start date
What are you talking about?
You liberals like to talk about science when it comes to God but denies science when it comes to basic gender
Gender and sex aren't the same thing.
I'm sure you have already read that. I'm sure others have already told you.
"You Cons" like to keep your blinders on when presented with information that doesn't fit your narrative. Just shout your argument louder and you'll win the debate.
never let facts get in the way of a good story
Someone mentioned Brown, I commented on him in response. Then I commented on Trudeau.
Yes, I realize I crossed federal and provincial lines and I admit it was confusing the way I typed it all out without quoting others as part of it, but in my head I'm aware of such.
I beg forgiveness for the indiscretion of my typed words not matching my train of thought.
Wake me up when you get the total number of genders
Wake me up when you get the total number of genders
If someone identifies them self as a potato.... I don't care.
That's potatoe, not potato! Stop offending people.If someone identifies them self as a potato.... I don't care.
JTR
Well-known member
Whenever I see "flip-flop" I laugh and automatically discount the opinion of someone who probably still thinks the world is flat and the sun moves around the earth, and that they actually disparage a person for having an open mind and changing their opinions and policies based upon the information they have. I mean there is really no point in debating a person that believes in saying flip-flop in any manner that isn't related to footwear. These are people that believe that even when presented with clear facts, a person is bound by honour, to stand firm in their opinion whether wrong or right.
When I see a person that is capable of changing their mind based upon new information, I'm more apt to regard that person as an open minded individual. Someone capable of intelligent, free thought. Less apt to sound like an idiot by quoting fox news circa 2004 when they had nothing better hit Kerry with, other than "dur flip flop durrrr". They coined that term and spread it like syphilis because they were too lazy to find anything better to use against him. In the long run I guess it worked, but it also made them look like repetitive morons.
Now on the other hand, if you were to say "well he's changed his standpoint on X issue, and I don't agree with his new direction because X", that has quite a different tone to it, gives an image that you are capable of having your very own thought processes. Imagine that.
When I see a person that is capable of changing their mind based upon new information, I'm more apt to regard that person as an open minded individual. Someone capable of intelligent, free thought. Less apt to sound like an idiot by quoting fox news circa 2004 when they had nothing better hit Kerry with, other than "dur flip flop durrrr". They coined that term and spread it like syphilis because they were too lazy to find anything better to use against him. In the long run I guess it worked, but it also made them look like repetitive morons.
Now on the other hand, if you were to say "well he's changed his standpoint on X issue, and I don't agree with his new direction because X", that has quite a different tone to it, gives an image that you are capable of having your very own thought processes. Imagine that.
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JTR
Well-known member
From which scientific journal did you find this study?
"You 'Rons" like to keep your blinders on when presented with information that doesn't fit your narrative. Just regurgitate what your liberal arts prof. told you, and you'll win the debate.
Since I'm presuming you're responding to my earlier statement, I'll respond.
There's a difference between a flip-flop, and a thoughtful change of opinion or outlook.
For a politician, changing ones opinion or outlook typically happens over a period of time, based on much thought, discussion or listening to the electorate, and sometimes some amount of introspection. It might take many months, and much discussion. And (gasp!) possibly asking the electorate for their thoughts...something that people routinely crap on Trudeau for doing. The horror.
A political flip flop is something that happens extremely rapidly, with little thought except for the sudden realization that you made an incredibly unpopular (or stupid) decision or statement and that sticking with it risks alienating your electorate, and hence, risks a failure to get elected, or if already elected, getting booted from office when the people have the next opportunity.
For Brown, his famous sex-education situation was a classic flipflop. One day he basically stands with his candidate and party on a vehement anti sex-education standpoint, and a few days later after a rabid public outcry, he very publicly suddenly has a change of heart and suddenly supports sex education in schools. A complete and total 180 degree change of opinion on an incredibly important political issue....inside about a 48 hour (IIRC) period of time.
Sorry, but if he honestly dislikes or wants to trash sex education in our school system, I'd like to know that...not that he'll change his mind overnight if/when he gets elected and then suddenly flipflop the other way and piss in the face of many of the same people who elected him by terminating it. When someone says one thing and then changes their mind inside a few days only because he/she suddenly realizes their decision was unpopular and could cost them their job, sorry, but I don't have a lot of faith that they're not just pandering at that point.
And no, I don't believe the earth is flat or the sun revolves around the earth. Anyhow that knows me knows that I'm a firm proponent of science.
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JTR
Well-known member
So then you agree that what you think is right today, could be wrong tomorrow? Or no? And if you do agree with that, then could not the same change in information and thought happen with a politician?
I mean I was a left supporter in my youth, and I know see the err of my ways. Was that a flip flop? Maybe after giving his opinion, and listening to his constituents, and the people around him, changed his opinion.
Here's an example of my thought processes; One day I have a fantastically brilliant idea. I then begin analyzing that great idea, by trying to find flaws. As I pick it apart, or others pick it apart, and flaws pile up, maybe that idea isn't so great anymore. So I toss the idea, even tell people nah my great idea could never work. flip flop? Maybe 3 days later I find a solution to the flaws that killed it and it lives once again... flip fop? or dynamic thought?
I said I'd never gt a bike, "I like to have four stable wheels and a shell round me" I said. Now I'm in love with riding. Flip flop? I would 'never be caught dead on a sports bike, I don't want to die yet", now I want cbr or ninja 300 to play around off road. Flip flop?
Where do we draw the line, no where do YOU draw the line, because do you not see how the same logic applies to everyday life? **** I was just gonna get a coffee, but now that I'm at the front of the line, and I've been influenced by all the smells and visuals, I really want a bagel, maybe a donut. Awe crap I'm a flip flop now.
I mean I was a left supporter in my youth, and I know see the err of my ways. Was that a flip flop? Maybe after giving his opinion, and listening to his constituents, and the people around him, changed his opinion.
Here's an example of my thought processes; One day I have a fantastically brilliant idea. I then begin analyzing that great idea, by trying to find flaws. As I pick it apart, or others pick it apart, and flaws pile up, maybe that idea isn't so great anymore. So I toss the idea, even tell people nah my great idea could never work. flip flop? Maybe 3 days later I find a solution to the flaws that killed it and it lives once again... flip fop? or dynamic thought?
I said I'd never gt a bike, "I like to have four stable wheels and a shell round me" I said. Now I'm in love with riding. Flip flop? I would 'never be caught dead on a sports bike, I don't want to die yet", now I want cbr or ninja 300 to play around off road. Flip flop?
Where do we draw the line, no where do YOU draw the line, because do you not see how the same logic applies to everyday life? **** I was just gonna get a coffee, but now that I'm at the front of the line, and I've been influenced by all the smells and visuals, I really want a bagel, maybe a donut. Awe crap I'm a flip flop now.
"Ideas" and "Fundamental viewpoints" are two different things, sorry you keep missing that.
One might have an idea about building a road that turns out to not be a good idea when the engineers say the terrain is a swamp. Sure, changing ones mind here makes sense and I don't think any constituent is going to disagree with that decision when the explanation is clear to all.
One might also have a fundamental viewpoint that God says unmarried sex is a sin therefore even choosing to educate children about sex is wrong because even talking about it might lead them to into sin. Because just telling them to abstain works, right?
Changing your decision about building a road because it turned out that it wasn't a great idea is different than shaping your party around fundamental beliefs that people voted for and then just tossing them out the window inside a 24 hour period when you suddenly realize they're unpopular and might prevent you from getting elected, or given the boot when the next opportunity arises.
Since I'm presuming you're responding to my earlier statement, I'll respond.
There's a difference between a flip-flop, and a thoughtful change of opinion or outlook.
For a politician, changing ones opinion or outlook typically happens over a period of time, based on much thought, discussion or listening to the electorate, and sometimes some amount of introspection. It might take many months, and much discussion. And (gasp!) possibly asking the electorate for their thoughts...something that people routinely crap on Trudeau for doing. The horror.
A political flip flop is something that happens extremely rapidly, with little thought except for the sudden realization that you made an incredibly unpopular (or stupid) decision or statement and that sticking with it risks alienating your electorate, and hence, risks a failure to get elected, or if already elected, getting booted from office when the people have the next opportunity.
For Brown, his famous sex-education situation was a classic flipflop. One day he basically stands with his candidate and party on a vehement anti sex-education standpoint, and a few days later after a rabid public outcry, he very publicly suddenly has a change of heart and suddenly supports sex education in schools. A complete and total 180 degree change of opinion on an incredibly important political issue....inside about a 48 hour (IIRC) period of time.
Sorry, but if he honestly dislikes or wants to trash sex education in our school system, I'd like to know that...not that he'll change his mind overnight if/when he gets elected and then suddenly flipflop the other way and piss in the face of many of the same people who elected him by terminating it. When someone says one thing and then changes their mind inside a few days only because he/she suddenly realizes their decision was unpopular and could cost them their job, sorry, but I don't have a lot of faith that they're not just pandering at that point.
And no, I don't believe the earth is flat or the sun revolves around the earth. Anyhow that knows me knows that I'm a firm proponent of science.
Well put. Life evolves as we learn. If the change of attitude is because of learning it's a good thing. When the change is just for popularity it's more likely to be a flip flop.
That said, open minded people can learn quickly and Brown's flip flop on Sex ed could be from an epiphany . However if there is a change of attitude it helps to clarify. "I used to believe X but now see that Y has more merit because....."
Roadghost
Well-known member
I would prefer a politician that rights himself when he's wrong to one who stubbornly digs in his heels and won't change his mind. I really don't care if someone calls it a flop-flop or a change of opinion. If it's for the better, then that's okay. They're supposed to respond to the will of the people, that's democracy.
Roadghost
Well-known member
If you look at the electoral disaster of John Tory when he ran for Premier you'll recall he dug in his heels on public funding for religious based schools. It was extremely unpopular and he lost because of it. He was being stupid. He should have flip-flopped as soon as it became apparent public opinion was against it. A smart politician knows when to change direction.
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