Wrecked my FZ1 in the Catskills, what to do now...

[RockerGuy]

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As you approach the limit of the braking force which is about to flip the bike over you, the closer you get to that point the less traction the tire has.

In perfect world, if you were a machine you'd start with 25% braking force in the rear and 75% front and slowly lessen the rear brake force as you apply more front to utilize maximum braking force.

In real world nobody is that good. So why play with it? Go max but progressive front and brake as hard as possible while keeping the rear tire just touching the ground.

start watching at 43sec. Watch the rear tire hop around with almost no weight on it. Just touching the rear brake would have stopped it.

[video=youtube;z1y92iUV0Lg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1y92iUV0Lg[/video]

I don't know what your argument is but some people say do not use the rear brake which I found misleading .

Clearly you don't quite understand ABS on a four wheeled vehicle.

Rear brakes contribute 0% at the limit of braking when weight transfer to the front is so great that the rear wheel is either off the ground or basically weightless

Of course I understand abs Kellen. I could go into technical details if you like but that might bore you.

0% braking? Then why do manufacturers put hundreds of dollars putting one? Save some $ only put front brakes, lolz.

This debate is like another oil thread, if you look you will see there are lots of debates about this. Do what you will but don't preach front brakes only as gospel

 

[kellen]

0% braking? Then why do manufacturers put hundreds of dollars putting one? Save some $ only put front brakes, lolz.

This debate is like another oil thread, if you look you will see there are lots of debates about this. Do what you will but don't preach front brakes only as gospel

The rear brake is quite useful under normal circumstances. But in an emergency braking situation (which is what the subject of this thread is) when you are reaching the limit of the front brakes on a sport bike, the rear brake is useless.


Tell me this:
Do you think, when I'm braking at the end of the straight and dropping two gears and the rear wheel is dancing three inches above the ground that hitting my rear brake is going to stop me any faster?

 

[Sarchi]

I have abs in my car & hate it. I prefer to modulate my own brakes. I would say abs can only help 5%. There is only so much that you can defeat physics

No argument about brake modulation. But most of us riding on the street would give up the last bit of braking power and feel to have extra security. Most sport and sport-touring bikes lock up the rear wheel way too easily. Those of us with a programmed reflex to stomp on the foot brake in a panic can benefit from having ABS, at least on the rear.

 

[Sarchi]

You guys are talking about conscious decisions and optimal this and that. My situation was all reflex. I looked away for a second or two and when I looked back - I thought I was a nanosecond from plowing into my riding buddy. There was absolutely no conscious decision making, what followed between that look and hitting the ground lasted all of 1.0 - 1.5 seconds. As best as I can piece it together, that's what happened, I panicked and and it was all reflexive.

 

[RockerGuy]

The rear brake is quite useful under normal circumstances. But in an emergency braking situation (which is what the subject of this thread is) when you are reaching the limit of the front brakes on a sport bike, the rear brake is useless.


Tell me this:
Do you think, when I'm braking at the end of the straight and dropping two gears and the rear wheel is dancing three inches above the ground that hitting my rear brake is going to stop me any faster?

I will use it until it becomes useless. That fraction of a second where it is still on the ground helps. Until it becomes propped in midair, that in my books is when it becomes useless. Oh, keeping your elbows locked & pushing your body to the back of your seat help keeps the rear down. Lift your head straight & don't allow it to fall.

In response to your 2nd question, no will not do anything when in midair, but when you bang 2 gears down you are overwhelming the rear tires. They can hold 25% of breaking, add to the fact you're putting engine braking (2 gears down) that probably puts another 25%.
Oh yeh, I would not consider being able to bang 2 gears as emergency braking, more as HARD braking. Emergency is when there is no time but to just grab the brakes

 

[kellen]

Talking to people about the limits of motorcycles to people to have never been near them is always fun

 

[23sigma]

Even experienced riders panic brake if they were cut off / caught off guard by something. It's all reflex. Talking about threshold braking for that split second is useless.

 

[caboose56]

I like grade 12 physics.

True threshold braking on a sport bike, where accelration is at it's maximum, is 100 percent front brake and 0 percent rear.

School is fun!

 

[hpvchewy]

Talking to people about the limits of motorcycles to people to have never been near them is always fun

Even experienced riders panic brake if they were cut off / caught off guard by something. It's all reflex. Talking about threshold braking for that split second is useless.

Sig: re experienced riders. I would venture to say that track day riders, when faced with an emergency situation on the street, would "squeeze" the front brake and keep upping the force as the weight transferred to the front tire and it offered more grip. An inexperienced or at least a non-track day rider, would most likely GRAB a handful of front brake instantly locking the front tire and low siding (on a non-ABS bike). That's how I see it anyway.

100 percent front brakes for emergency stop, only if you know how to use em

 

[Griffin]

MSF course teaches the use of both brakes.

And your point is? I stand by my statement. Teaching new riders to use the rear brake in an emergency, on a sport bike, particularly one without ABS is a disaster waiting to happen.

Common sense, if your front brake delivers 75% braking & your rear brake delivers 25%. Why would you only want 75%??


I have abs in my car & hate it. I prefer to modulate my own brakes. I would say abs can only help 5%. There is only so much that you can defeat physics


Sent from my tablet using my paws

Your rear brake does NOT contribute 25%. As noted by other posters that seem to know what they're talking about, it is likely your rear wheel is in the air (or it should be if you're actually hard on the fronts). The rear contributes virtually nothing other than a potentially locked rear wheel. FUrther, it is far easier to modulate the front brake at threshold and prevent lock than the rear. Even if you are so ham fisted that you do lock the front it is easy to immediately back off. WIth your foot on the rear it is a different story.

Only people I know that have locked the front and crashed (on the road) are morons and drunks.

I think some people need to get out and practice some very hard braking. It's obvious that many people posting here have never had to pound their brakes hard. When you do, if you're relying on your rear brake to help stop you and not lock up, you will be surpised. I hope it doesn't end like it does for most with a crash.

Regardless of your theories, your teacher or your bike, GET OUT AND PRACTICE!!! Then you can figure it out for yourself.

 

[RockerGuy]

Talking to people about the limits of motorcycles to people to have never been near them is always fun

We're talking about braking in Street conditions. My argument has no value?

Your rear brake does NOT contribute 25%. As noted by other posters that seem to know what they're talking about, it is likely your rear wheel is in the air (or it should be if you're actually hard on the fronts).
Regardless of your theories, your teacher or your bike, GET OUT AND PRACTICE!!! Then you can figure it out for yourself.

LOL, assumptions, assumptions. As they say it makes an arse outta you & me. You're saying I spent 9yrs riding the streets of Toronto & never had to squeeze the crap out of my brakes? I've had the rear up numerous times.

Do what you will, I will continue what works for me. Do what works for you!

 

[kellen]

We're talking about braking in Street conditions. My argument has no value?

What makes you think the laws of physics change in street conditions?

 

[RockerGuy]

What makes you think the laws of physics change in street conditions?

You're saying I never reached my limits on the street. You're saying I don't ever reach my braking limit on the street? What's your argument?

Sent from my tablet using my paws

 

[caboose56]

Physics is subjective and only applies to you if you believe in it!

 

[kellen]

You're saying I never reached my limits on the street. You're saying I don't ever reach my braking limit on the street? What's your argument?

Sent from my tablet using my paws

That your response to griffin saying that in an emergency braking situation( you know, the type this thread is about) the rear brake does 25% of the work, is incorrect

 

[Griffin]

LOL, assumptions, assumptions. As they say it makes an arse outta you & me. You're saying I spent 9yrs riding the streets of Toronto & never had to squeeze the crap out of my brakes? I've had the rear up numerous times.

Do what you will, I will continue what works for me. Do what works for you!

I'm not making any assumptions about you. And, by the way, anyone that thinks that making assumptions makes an arse outta you and me hasn't gotten past Grade 3 semantics.

You wrote, previously, that your rear contributes 25% to braking in an emergency. It doesn't.

Then, in your latest response, you seem to indicate that you have nine years of experience braking at threshold and that your rear is in the air "numerous times". So, which is it? Do you get 25% of braking from the rear or is it in the air? Or do you get some sort of miracle physics out of your ride and get 25% braking through air resistance? Just curious cause it seems to me you haven't a clue what you're writing about.

And finally, "do what works for you" is what I was advocating in the post you quoted.

 

[omnivore]

Rockerguy, if stopping in an panic situation, you happened to crash because you used some or too much rear brake, and you didn't brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel, then you simply didn't try hard enough. The braking performance was there, you either didn't believe it, or didn't habitually and instictively select the front brake lever instead. Regardless of why, the rear brake was and always will be the wrong choice on a light and short bike. Period.

As Kellen said, the limits are there , and you don't know where the limit is until you go over them at least once. If using the front brakes as hard as possible, there still wasn't room to stop before the obstacle, then at least you can honestly say you really gave it your all. But if you fell anywhere short of rear wheel in the air, then hit the obstacle, then you know you could've done more. It's the same as a turn. If you go in too hot, lean till you either drag hard parts or crash. You may crash from leaning way past your comfort level, but you definitely WILL crash if you don't.

 

[soto]

I locked my rear twice in panic reflex and while I didn't go down I started to question using the rear for emergencies. So I went out and practiced over and over using the rear and not using it and honestly my fastest braking was using just the front. I think when I focus on just the front I'm able to get to the threshold faster.

Scary thing is I was braking so hard and so often that I actually lost braking power completely. The lever had no resistance. I thought I broke something but 10 minutes later my brakes were back. Some googling suggested the brake fluid reached its boiling point...

 

[inreb]

I love the howl of front tire in the morning.

 

[N3WMAN]

And your point is? I stand by my statement. Teaching new riders to use the rear brake in an emergency, on a sport bike, particularly one without ABS is a disaster waiting to happen.

My point is that it doesn't matter how experienced the teacher is. The curriculum is to teach both brakes, whether they like it or not.

So don't be surprised when street only riders use both brakes.

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