Woooo PC majority

[Type17]

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Wynne was simply fiscally irresponsible -- she used the public's credit like a 16 year princess using her daddy's credit card. I wonder what her personal finances look like?

Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit? It seems to me that without giving up on some of his more populist promises, he can't possibly make good on the fiscal responsibility.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

You would be apologizing on behalf of your alternate facts, sometimes called Fiberals. Wynne was the campaign chair for the Libs when the gas plant cancellation was organized -- she signed the Cabinet directive cancelling the plants and approving the billion dollar payouts. She also reprimanded by Ontario's privacy commissioner for misleading the public by not providing information during the inquiry.

He's already brushed that fact off once in this thread. Going for twice?

 

[Evoex]

He's already brushed that fact off once in this thread. Going for twice?

I was wondering if anyone else caught it

 

[Mad Mike]

...It just goes to show that Canadians and the people of Ontario aren't really serious about things like the environment, or clean energy, or climate change, or any of the stuff that we all like to pat ourselves on the back for. Everyone says they like and want these things, but when it comes time to pay for them either through higher hydro rates, or higher financing costs, or a carbon tax to actually put a price on the air we breathe, or any other mechanism, we all have a fit. We want these things for free. ....

I think the electorate wants and values these things, the are simply fed up with a $1 problem costing $5 for the liberals to solve. A simple example is the Liberal's charge to make global green announcements on wind and solar. Engineers said woah, it wasn't tough for them to figure out conservation, nuclear rebuilds, and cheap imports from hydro in QC and MB would be far more cost effective than their multi-billion dollar gas, solar and wind boondoggles.

I'm not sure about the carbon tax schemes. Under the current system, the assumption is that tax penalties are the only way. This is convenient for the gov't because tax grabs can be used to fund whatever they want (or in the case of the current carbon tax, whatever they feel like greenwashing). I think regulation is a better alternative - it worked fabulously in the auto sector -- a car built in 30 years ago produced created as much greenhouse gas driving from Oshawa to Hamilton as a late model car creates from Oshawa to Vancouver. This was largely Canada following/benefiting from the US Clean Air Act. It worked fabulously in the energy sector too - refineries and generators now use technology to scrub air. It worked in textile processing - toxic dyes and vapor emissions are replaced with green alternatives, emissions captured and recycled.

Regulation can also include incentives - things like tax credits for electric cars, commercial co and regeneration is starting at steel mills and other heavy industries that dump heat.

Personally, I think the Liberals were mainly undone by bad PR, not so much the quality of their governance. A few botched initiatives were handled so poorly in the public eye that they overshadowed hundreds of initiatives and projects that went well. At the end of the day though, I think things will be alright. Ford is hilariously unqualified and a shameless opportunist, but he's got the right people around him; if he listens, he'll do well. I can't see him winning a 2nd term tho... there's no way he can deliver on his promises; they're just contradictory.

I think their undoing was more related to neglect of the deeper economic issues. We're in an economic boom right now -- are we enjoying it? Do we have the industry and business that can build and create the wealth the province was built on? Do we have the manufacturing capacity to enjoy a trade surplus? I don't think so -- our consumer debt is high, our standard of living isn't better than our parents and grandparents. It should be.

 

[Dilligaf0220]

When I read stuff like this about RoFo I can't help thinking we live in totally different dimensions and we have totally different expectations from the people around us.

Yes, a crack smoking trust fund blowhard ran Toronto better than any other mayor in your lifetime. Go ahead, pick another.
Miller? Lastman? Oh dear lord I'm old enough to remember when Barbara Hall banned the Bare Naked Ladies from playing New Years Eve because their name was sexist.
We share the same dimension, but different universes. And yours has led to the inevitable dissolution of the GTA.

Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit? It seems to me that without giving up on some of his more populist promises, he can't possibly make good on the fiscal responsibility.

Dissolving public sector unions and removing 100,000 pay cheques would be a start. Taking on cops and their pay is another issue entirely, best left to the 2nd term.
Hey you never know, Dougie might take a note from your fav wall poster and nationalize Hydro One.

 

[J_F]

I think their undoing was more related to neglect of the deeper economic issues. We're in an economic boom right now -- are we enjoying it? Do we have the industry and business that can build and create the wealth the province was built on? Do we have the manufacturing capacity to enjoy a trade surplus? I don't think so -- our consumer debt is high, our standard of living isn't better than our parents and grandparents. It should be.

things were chugging along quite well until a certain introverted guy took the reins
took out his adolescent angst on the Eastern Establishment that teased him
and turned the national economy into a gas station

the subject of Petro Economy is interesting reading
when Gov relies on a single industry for a large segment of it's revenue
funny things happen
population's wishes are ignored, civil and human rights become secondary

we don't need a Gov owned pipeline
we need to start exporting value added goods like we used to
the sooner that national disgrace in N. Alberta is shut down
the better our economy and the planet will be

 

[Type17]

Yes, a crack smoking trust fund blowhard ran Toronto better than any other mayor in your lifetime. Go ahead, pick another.
Miller? Lastman? Oh dear lord I'm old enough to remember when Barbara Hall banned the Bare Naked Ladies from playing New Years Eve because their name was sexist.
We share the same dimension, but different universes. And yours has led to the inevitable dissolution of the GTA.

I can basically name anyone that's not Rob. Tory's the obvious comparison. One of my minimum requirements is that the Mayor shows up to work, is not cracked out, and can manage to avoid turning the city's bureaucracy into a global level embarrassment every other week. A feminist tantrum, however stupid, isn't even in the same league as that. It's hyperbole to suggest otherwise.

Dissolving public sector unions and removing 100,000 pay cheques would be a start. Taking on cops and their pay is another issue entirely, best left to the 2nd term.
Hey you never know, Dougie might take a note from your fav wall poster and nationalize Hydro One.

I voted conservative. A lot of frustration with others and a desire to spite in your posts man. Hopefully these next few years bring you some peace.

 

[fastar1]

You would be apologizing on behalf of your alternate facts, sometimes called Fiberals. Wynne was the campaign chair for the Libs when the gas plant cancellation was organized -- she signed the Cabinet directive cancelling the plants and approving the billion dollar payouts. She also reprimanded by Ontario's privacy commissioner for misleading the public by not providing information during the inquiry.

On teachers unions... Wynne's pandering to Teacher's unions has been endless. Here's the pre-election $31 million gift (this was her gift, not an arbitration award), https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...nglish-catholic-teachers-union-31-million-as/ then the multi-million dollar payments to help finance the union fight against the government - she has a long history of pandering to public service unions.

Wynne was simply fiscally irresponsible -- she used the public's credit like a 16 year princess using her daddy's credit card. I wonder what her personal finances look like?

She signed the directive, approved the payouts, and was reprimanded by the privacy commissioner? Yikes. If you have information that no one else has you should share it. Reporters would line up in a flash for that kind of dirt.

Re: union payouts. Yikes (x3)
- You said she "bought the last election" with these payouts. That election was 2014, how does a 2018 deal get her elected in 2014?
- The payout was required by an arbitrator, your link even says so. It wasn't some stupid freebie as you insist.
- The voluntary $2.5 million she DID pay for bargaining costs was also after the last election, 2015. None of those payments bought her anything in 2014 or yesterday.

 

[Baggsy]

Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit? It seems to me that without giving up on some of his more populist promises, he can't possibly make good on the fiscal responsibility.

Wow, every economist, eh? It looks like I went into the wrong business, if you can count an entire profession in the province on a hand or two.

 

[fastar1]

Well using his brother's tenure as the best mayor of Toronto you'll ever see in your lifetime as a benchmark, not far off.

I just had to quote this.
And I am wondering which branch of the provincial gov't you are paid from.
The McWynnety era was born from the worst self serving habits of the Liberal party, there are people that served prison time covering up her public service, Kathleen Wynne has been in the front trenches of taking one of the worlds most vibrant economies and turning it into an overpriced "Have Not" province, while enriching herself and especially enriching her co-conspirators.

Ding dong the witch is dead.

Yup, Rob is known for his supreme leadership and governing ability, for sure. Even without ever understanding anything he was doing he still managed to outperform all those other elite blowhards who actually built stuff and helped grow a thriving city. Bumbaclot Rob is how we should honour him.

I know it's impossible for you to understand but I'm not defending Wynne for my own self interests. I'm actually interested in the wellbeing of the province, whether it helps me or hinders me. Doug will be as wonderful and competent in running government as Rob and Donald, and I think if I leave it at that we can both be satisfied with the comparison.

So, apart from those baseless criticisms you make of Wynne, the one specific offense you claim is actually (surprise surprise) untrue. We started receiving equalization payments after the financial crisis, and the year Wynne took charge the transfers were at their peak. Since then the equalization payments have come down steadily (from $240 to $70 per person). That's just the simple truth. If you want to look deeper, the reason we lost so many jobs was our dependance on low skill manufacturing jobs. She's helped recover from that loss without becoming dependent on manufacturing again, which is exactly what Doug wants to do.

You're demonstrating exactly how she's been railroaded. It's been exactly as you say, a witch hunt. I suppose you don't care about the truth when you're deciding things that affect others, but I'd think you'd at least recognize that you need to be honest with yourself.

 

[J_F]

if no one remembers David Crombie
I think I'm gonna have to stop coming here

 

[Type17]

Wow, every economist, eh? It looks like I went into the wrong business, if you can count an entire profession in the province on a hand or two.

It’s a pretty small industry.

In any case, I’d say it’s fairly common knowledge by now that he had an expensive agenda and as of yet no plan to fund it. I haven’t seen or read about any reputable papers or institute suggesting otherwise. Have you?

 

[Baggsy]

It’s a pretty small industry.

In any case, I’d say it’s fairly common knowledge by now that he had an expensive agenda and as of yet no plan to fund it. I haven’t seen or read about any reputable papers or institute suggesting otherwise. Have you?

Why would you be asking me?

You stated as a fact: "Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit?"

You've made this type of statement on more that one occasion, and it seems to me to have increased in frequency over time.

 

[Type17]

Why would you be asking me?

You stated as a fact: "Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit?"

You've made this type of statement on more that one occasion, and it seems to me to have increased in frequency over time.

I was asking you because you appeared to be suggesting that it wasn’t the case that the PCs had the largest projected deficit.

Fair enough. Regardless of my wording, i felt the meaning was clear, but for you i’ll clarify that what i meant is “the economists that have opined on the matter have, in my experience, uniformly projected that the PC party’s policies would lead to the largest deficits, so much so that most news articles concerning the fiscal impact of PC policies have been negative”. Hopefully this will make the meaning of my original post clear to you.

 

[jc100]

You would be apologizing on behalf of your alternate facts, sometimes called Fiberals. Wynne was the campaign chair for the Libs when the gas plant cancellation was organized -- she signed the Cabinet directive cancelling the plants and approving the billion dollar payouts. She also reprimanded by Ontario's privacy commissioner for misleading the public by not providing information during the inquiry.

On teachers unions... Wynne's pandering to Teacher's unions has been endless. Here's the pre-election $31 million gift (this was her gift, not an arbitration award), https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...nglish-catholic-teachers-union-31-million-as/ then the multi-million dollar payments to help finance the union fight against the government - she has a long history of pandering to public service unions.

Wynne was simply fiscally irresponsible -- she used the public's credit like a 16 year princess using her daddy's credit card. I wonder what her personal finances look like?

.....and we are still wondering what the fiscal situation is with Ford.....that’s fiscally irresponsible, not releasing details.

 

[Baggsy]

I was asking you because you appeared to be suggesting that it wasn’t the case that the PCs had the largest projected deficit.

Fair enough. Regardless of my wording, i felt the meaning was clear, but for you i’ll clarify that what i meant is “the economists that have opined on the matter have, in my experience, uniformly projected that the PC party’s policies would lead to the largest deficits, so much so that most news articles concerning the fiscal impact of PC policies have been negative”. Hopefully this will make the meaning of my original post clear to you.

I saw a couple of online articles and one facebook cheat sheet from a union. I have no idea if they used the same or different data. I believe that Ford was sufficiently vague about things that it would be very difficult to set out a cost, without an agenda as to which way to "tweak" the numbers.

What I expect him to do, is to form an A team cabinet from the people he has available, and let them do some of the heavy lifting.

I don't expect him to be a one man show, except as a magnet for all of the hatred of those who would like to see his downfall.

 

[Mad Mike]

Sure, but how do you reconcile that with support for Ford, who is projected by every economist in the province to have the largest deficit? It seems to me that without giving up on some of his more populist promises, he can't possibly make good on the fiscal responsibility.

I'm guessing he didn't want to expose too much of the unsavory part of the agenda during a campaign -- cuts. I call this the Hudak law, get a mandate for change before disclosing the cut details. Do you really want to tell the PSUs that you're putting them on a headcount diet? Or that $150/hour wage & benefit cost for high school teachers might be a little rich?

The last regime wasn't known for efficiency or fiscal responsibility, there must to be massive efficiencies available. Cutting red tape also ends up cutting a huge amount of bureaucracy, I'm guessing this is going to happen fast. Simple things like reviving the concept of in-home daycare can provide huge savings for consumers and gov't. The last regime crushed a mature and working home care cottage industry, and replaced it with institutional care that did nothing but quadruple costs for families and add a layer of gov't bureaucracy.

It will take a couple of months to figure out the current spend plans and deficit, and probably 4 years to return to balanced budgets. Give the new guys some time to get the plan together.

 

[Mad Mike]

.....and we are still wondering what the fiscal situation is with Ford.....that’s fiscally irresponsible, not releasing details.

You're going to wonder that for a while. The last regime wasn't exactly transparent or truthful with their accounting, it's going to take a couple of months to be sure they more deficits than the Auditor General has already uncovered.

They will certainly have to deliver a revised budget, that will tell the details.

The PCs are under no pressure from voters to release a financial plan -- that pressure is only from opponents and the media. Since those opponents are a minority now, they wait until the current regime releases he details - like it or not.

 

[Mad Mike]

She signed the directive, approved the payouts, and was reprimanded by the privacy commissioner? Yikes. If you have information that no one else has you should share it. Reporters would line up in a flash for that kind of dirt.

Learn to use Google. Here's the wiki on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_power_plant_scandal

Re: union payouts. Yikes (x3)
- You said she "bought the last election" with these payouts. That election was 2014, how does a 2018 deal get her elected in 2014?
- The payout was required by an arbitrator, your link even says so. It wasn't some stupid freebie as you insist.
- The voluntary $2.5 million she DID pay for bargaining costs was also after the last election, 2015. None of those payments bought her anything in 2014 or yesterday.

The payout was not required, arbitration simply determined Wynne broke constitutional law when she force terms on the unions - no payout was mandated. Wynne decided on the gift, it ****** off every other union as they saw it as vote buying and felt they didn't get their taste -- it was done this spring.

The $2.5 million was paid several times to different unions - the total is somewhere close to $14 million over the last 10 years. It was paid to the union organizations to buy their support by paying for some extravagant expenses (they used it for some nice hotels, dinners, travel etc -- not for the union rank and file). It was done as goodwill gesture intended to endure union leaders to the Liberal party -- nothing else.

Look -- Wynne was premier or campaign manager during all this patronage crap -- she was privy and integral to all the vote buying, it's that simple. Denying it is silly, there are hundreds of news and other articles documenting her involvement.

 

[jc100]

You're going to wonder that for a while. The last regime wasn't exactly transparent or truthful with their accounting, it's going to take a couple of months to be sure they more deficits than the Auditor General has already uncovered.

They will certainly have to deliver a revised budget, that will tell the details.

The PCs are under no pressure from voters to release a financial plan -- that pressure is only from opponents and the media. Since those opponents are a minority now, they wait until the current regime releases he details - like it or not.

The opponents are about 60% combined aren’t they? Like it or not there isn’t a fiscal plan from the party many people just voted in and that’s quite astonishing. I don’t know what your religious leanings are but I’m an atheist, having faith isn’t good enough and “wait and see” politics is code for “we haven’t a clue”.

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