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Wills

I'll keep this thread alive a bit longer ... my dad passed away Feb14, exactly 1 year after my kids other grandfather passed away. Spooky.

My mom's still alive.

There are 3 kids, me, a brother, & a sister. Brother is out west while sister & I are in the GTA.

We've just been through an issue where brother wanted dads car and agreed to pay us 2 our thirds. He was going to ship it out his way by train but didn't want to pay us until he got the car in his possession (shipping service wouldn't insure car as it's older than 6 years). We said no, you buy the car, you take the risk when it leaves mom's garage (mom doesn't drive btw). No different than if the shoe was on the other foot & no different than if you were to sell your car to someone else ... you don't wait for payment until the new owner gets it in his hands.

He'd basically stiff us both if the worse was to happen along the way and the car was a write-off.

He didn't agree so instead is flying here and driving it all the way to MB. It's a 2006 Subaru that's admittedly in great shape with low km's for it's age.

Anyway, my sister & I are realizing he's going to be a problem. Currently all 3 are POA and all 3 are Executors. My sister & I have discussed having mom making either me or her the Executor (we're both sensible & fair while he's self-entitled & selfish). She can supposedly do that without anyone's knowledge right?

2nd question: Probate fees. If I'm correct, the fee in Ontario for $2 mill in assets is $30k. Did not realize it'd be that much. Is it best to transfer ownership to all 3 of us before mom passes at market value? We'd then sell it asap and ideally have very little capital gains tax, right?

Thanks all.
We went through it a couple of years ago with a self entitled relative that blew every chance he had in life. He thought he should inherit the family home because his siblings had houses and he didn't. The legal costs put a third of the estate into the hands of the lawyers. He at one time had several properties but made bad choices. "The world is against me. Boohoo"

Petty stuff comes up as GG mentions. Even driving the testator to the lawyers office can be taken as influencing.

In the Depp / Heard trial, they argued over who paid for the donuts. Or was it muffins? Lets argue for an hour over the choice of pastry at a couple of grand an hour. Yeah that petty.
 
Main asset by far is a house, primary residence for mom. All 3 of us have our own primary residences.
Once the owner passes away the house is no longer clear of cap gains as legislation in 2016 changed a bunch of things.

Once the owner passes any gain in value from the appraisal at the time of death is taxable. Not a big issue if things go at a reasonable pace. However if the sale is deferred a couple of years the tax bill could be considerable.
 
Being it is a 2006 Subaru... even low miles and in great shape it could have just been "you come and get it by xxx date, its yours."
Not when we could have gotten $6k for it ... we ended up giving him a family discount, so $5k.
 
That's what he's doing ... him and his oldest son (15'ish) but still that's a long road trip on an 18 yr old car ... to me the risks are waaay higher than losing the car on a train.
 
That's what he's doing ... him and his oldest son (15'ish) but still that's a long road trip on an 18 yr old car ... to me the risks are waaay higher than losing the car on a train.
I bought a used Chevy from a used car dealer, drove it around town for a day or two and then drove to Brandon MB and back. I promised my uncle I'd be there for his 90th birthday party.
 
I'll keep this thread alive a bit longer ... my dad passed away Feb14, exactly 1 year after my kids other grandfather passed away. Spooky.

My mom's still alive.

There are 3 kids, me, a brother, & a sister. Brother is out west while sister & I are in the GTA.

We've just been through an issue where brother wanted dads car and agreed to pay us 2 our thirds. He was going to ship it out his way by train but didn't want to pay us until he got the car in his possession (shipping service wouldn't insure car as it's older than 6 years). We said no, you buy the car, you take the risk when it leaves mom's garage (mom doesn't drive btw). No different than if the shoe was on the other foot & no different than if you were to sell your car to someone else ... you don't wait for payment until the new owner gets it in his hands.

He'd basically stiff us both if the worse was to happen along the way and the car was a write-off.

He didn't agree so instead is flying here and driving it all the way to MB. It's a 2006 Subaru that's admittedly in great shape with low km's for it's age.

Anyway, my sister & I are realizing he's going to be a problem. Currently all 3 are POA and all 3 are Executors. My sister & I have discussed having mom making either me or her the Executor (we're both sensible & fair while he's self-entitled & selfish). She can supposedly do that without anyone's knowledge right?

2nd question: Probate fees. If I'm correct, the fee in Ontario for $2 mill in assets is $30k. Did not realize it'd be that much. Is it best to transfer ownership to all 3 of us before mom passes at market value? We'd then sell it asap and ideally have very little capital gains tax, right?

Thanks all.
I have a sister who has shared PoA and Co-Executor, she's had a rough up bringing (mental illness, being physically assaulted, etc) so she can be a handful when she goes off. I opted to be the big brother my parents would have expected and haven't pushed her to make decisions, even though this meant she and I both left a lot of money on the table (we didn't sell dad's house when market was peak value). Since I need her consent on any and all things, this has been a far better way to handle it.

When we were told our dad wasn't going to leave the hospital we consulted a lawyer and opted to use PoA to transfer the property into our names while we could. We avoided $17k+ in probate fees. Would normally still be on the hook for capital gains after the fact since I didn't buy my sister out or move into it, but due to the market swing I wrote it off as a capital loss and so far CRA hasn't disagreed.

No beneficiaries or executors or PoAs need to be notified of their addition or removal from a will. One can always choose to not assume the duties even if they are named.

Concur with the others. Have a paper trail and document that 'upon seeking advice from HER lawyer, she updated her will to yadda yadda' is how I would do it. Wills get contested all the time and that's just money out of the estate.

Feel free to PM if you have any private queries as I'm still going through the process.
 
I'll keep this thread alive a bit longer ... my dad passed away Feb14, exactly 1 year after my kids other grandfather passed away. Spooky.

My mom's still alive.

There are 3 kids, me, a brother, & a sister. Brother is out west while sister & I are in the GTA.

We've just been through an issue where brother wanted dads car and agreed to pay us 2 our thirds. He was going to ship it out his way by train but didn't want to pay us until he got the car in his possession (shipping service wouldn't insure car as it's older than 6 years). We said no, you buy the car, you take the risk when it leaves mom's garage (mom doesn't drive btw). No different than if the shoe was on the other foot & no different than if you were to sell your car to someone else ... you don't wait for payment until the new owner gets it in his hands.

He'd basically stiff us both if the worse was to happen along the way and the car was a write-off.

He didn't agree so instead is flying here and driving it all the way to MB. It's a 2006 Subaru that's admittedly in great shape with low km's for it's age.

Anyway, my sister & I are realizing he's going to be a problem. Currently all 3 are POA and all 3 are Executors. My sister & I have discussed having mom making either me or her the Executor (we're both sensible & fair while he's self-entitled & selfish). She can supposedly do that without anyone's knowledge right?

2nd question: Probate fees. If I'm correct, the fee in Ontario for $2 mill in assets is $30k. Did not realize it'd be that much. Is it best to transfer ownership to all 3 of us before mom passes at market value? We'd then sell it asap and ideally have very little capital gains tax, right?

Thanks all.
POA revocation: Chances are that the POAs and Wills were setup the same way, meaning the POA will be a joint affair that requires all three POAs to agree on decisions.

POA can be revoked at any time by the Donor (mom). Executor changes are the same. She can do this by herself (you can help) or using a paralegal or family law lawyer which would cost $200-300 for an update. Revoking a POA can be a handwritten document with the title Notice of Revocation. No special forms are required, all mom needs to do is write: “Effective immediately I revoke all previous Power of Attorney for Personal Care and Property.” Mom signs and dates the document - done. It's a good idea to send copies to all known POAs - AND - to any medical or financial institutions with POAs on file.

Reestablish POAs for you and Sis: If you want to protect each other against each other, make them 'Joint'. If you're trusting each can make independent decisions - make the POAs 'Several'. To make a power of attorney yourself, you can use these links: Powers of Attorney (PDF version) Guided Pathway to preparing a power of attorney - Steps to Justice

Wills: Simple changes to a will can be done using a Codicil. A codicil is a simple amendment that cancels, adds to or changes an existing will. Here is a simple example.

-----------
CODICIL

This is a codicil to the Last Will and Testament of me, [name], of the City of [city], in the Region of[municipality], in the Province of Ontario, which will is dated the [date of will].

1. I make the following change to this my Will:

Remove Executor #3, [bro Smith].


[mom signature
______________________________
TESTATOR’S SIGNATURE


[printed name and signed by someone with no interest in the estate]
_____________________________
Witness

[another someone's printed name and signed by someone with no interest in the estate]
_____________________________
Witness
------------------
Staple the Codicil to the back of the existing Will, then mail registered copies to all impacted parties.
 
Being it is a 2006 Subaru... even low miles and in great shape it could have just been "you come and get it by xxx date, its yours."
Don't forget to bring head gaskets.
 
POA revocation: Chances are that the POAs and Wills were setup the same way, meaning the POA will be a joint affair that requires all three POAs to agree on decisions.
Hold on ... re: the bold part, ALL 3 have to agree? It's not a majority rules situation?

We were hoping the 2 sensible ones (sis & I) could overrule self-entitled one (bro).

If you're correct, what's the dispute resolution part?
 
Hold on ... re: the bold part, ALL 3 have to agree? It's not a majority rules situation?

We were hoping the 2 sensible ones (sis & I) could overrule self-entitled one (bro).

If you're correct, what's the dispute resolution part?
If that is so....escalating arguments and life long resentment.
 
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No beneficiaries or executors or PoAs need to be notified of their addition or removal from a will. One can always choose to not assume the duties even if they are named.
..
While this is true, notifying them is not required. Notification is just a smart thing to do, for the cost of a registered letter you can reduce headaches in the future - particularly if an untrustworthy POA starts milking the estate, or a greedy co-executor ties up the will in the courts.

As a banker, I saw the occasional rogue POA snort or gamble away their sibling's inheritances. Not fun.

Also a good idea to setup SMS 2FA that goes to you on everything for an elderly or infirm person who's affairs you manage under POA. See bad things happen when children or grandchildren help Nana with her online banking.
 
Hold on ... re: the bold part, ALL 3 have to agree? It's not a majority rules situation?

We were hoping the 2 sensible ones (sis & I) could overrule self-entitled one (bro).

If you're correct, what's the dispute resolution part?
This is from the UK which we typically agree with. I didn't find a canadian source. I expect that a lawyer could incorporate 2/3 majority in a POA document but don't know for sure. It seems supportable but if A and B were a team and contrary to C, C could easily tie you up in court by arguing decisions were not in best interest of the Donor. You may eventually win but again, time and money burned. Simplest solution seems to be you and sister as several POA. Either one can make a decision if required. In practice, you both sound reasonable so would discuss before doing something drastic.

If a decision by attorneys must be joint, then unless there is unanimous agreement no decision can be made. However, if an attorney who is allowed to act severally makes a decision, that decision will be valid even if it causes conflict with the other attorneys.
 
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Hold on ... re: the bold part, ALL 3 have to agree? It's not a majority rules situation?

We were hoping the 2 sensible ones (sis & I) could overrule self-entitled one (bro).

If you're correct, what's the dispute resolution part?
By default, all 'JOINT' POAs must agree before taking action. For any other condition, 2 of 3, majority when there are more than 3, those situations must be clearly stated in the POA conditions. It's not really worth doing that as most financial institutions will not support those types of special conditions.

If the POAs are set up as 'SEVERAL', any POA can take actions alone.
 
Here's what ChatGPT says ... rarely use it but I thought about giving it a try. Sounds like I'll have to get a copy of the will and see if we need to add the "majority decision" clause.

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Not POA but we were once considering having two people to be property guardian for our kids if we died, one was a family member--sibling (thinking they will do best from that perspective) and the other a very good friend (that would "understand the money"). The kids would be living with another younger family member...

The money guy above told us it was a bad idea, if they disagreed (property guardians) nothing can move forward and that could be worse for the kids. So we decided on an in-law for the property guardianship as it was the closest to being the best of both worlds.
 
...

If you're correct, what's the dispute resolution part?
Courts for Wills.

There is no set process to resolve POA disputes, you can always try the courts. Best to try working things out between POAS and the Donor.
 
This is from the UK which we typically agree with. I didn't find a canadian source. I expect that a lawyer could incorporate 2/3 majority in a POA document but don't know for sure. It seems supportable but if A and B were a team and contrary to C, C could easily tie you up in court by arguing decisions were not in best interest of the Donor. You may eventually win but again, time and money burned. Simplest solution seems to be you and sister as several POA. Either one can make a decision if required. In practice, you both sound reasonable so would discuss before doing something drastic.

If a decision by attorneys must be joint, then unless there is unanimous agreement no decision can be made. However, if an attorney who is allowed to act severally makes a decision, that decision will be valid even if it causes conflict with the other attorneys.
That's the way it is in Canada. A "Several POA" is trump.
 

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