Why we need a minimum wage hike......

[ZX600]

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Rather than spewing an emotional response, Please identify the logic flaw in the dialog.

P.S. The Dems are currently running the bus over the cliff, not the Pubs.

The Dems left billions of dollars surplus (remember Bill Clinton) what did Bush Junior do?, left the country in economical shambles, the stock market was below 7 points and things were going down fast, guess who came to save your country from that mess rich cowboy left?

Let me guess, you are an American, from the south most likely?

Spending power has to be in the hands of those who actually spend in the real economy, raising the minimum wage put more money on the hands of the people that buy products.... translation = Good

A higher minimum wage would also help to mitigate the abusive, exploitative working practices of a number of employers, who take advantage of the currently low minimum wage to seek cut-rate help


Sure there has to be a balance between what people has the right to earn and what small companies can afford to pay, but who is going to decide what the right amount is? those companies? yea right because history dictates that companies and corporations really care about the wellbeing of their employees


Now, If we are talking US specifically:

From the LA times:
Currently, an individual with a full-time job at the minimum wage and a family of three to support will fall below the federal poverty line. These workers, despite putting in regular hours, are struggling to provide basic necessities for themselves and their families. By allowing the minimum wage to remain at a nearly unlivable level, we have deemed certain jobs not worthy enough to meet even our country's minimum standard of living

The most common objection to raising the minimum wage is that it destroys jobs. But a slew of recent studies have pointed out that although raising the minimum wage does increase earnings and reduce poverty, it has a limited, almost negligible, effect on employment. Studies have also illustrated that restoring the dignity of work through higher wages reduces worker turnover and increases productivity

I will leave this here an exit this thread because to be honest, to me discussing politics with a republican is not something I would lower myself to.

 

[caboose56]

Im guessing your talking about one of the Scandinavian countries?

Heres the one I was referring to

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx

As a bonus there is a 12 month riding season

Yes, Norway in particular. Any country with abundant natural resources (ahem... like Canada) could be in a similar financial position.

Yes to all. You want to do better? Work harder and work smarter. Incentivizing lazy workers is not the solution to the problems we/they have.

Rather than spewing an emotional response, Please identify the logic flaw in the dialog.

P.S. The Dems are currently running the bus over the cliff, not the Pubs.

The capitalist system stops working when the government intervenes to "make things better". The republican garbage is idiotic because their ideas are no better and they spread the 'socialist hate' because 'socialism is the devil' and the democrats are hardly socialist. The democrat garbage is idiotic too for similar reasons.

The only reason Canada gets referred to as 'socialist' is because we live next to the idiots down south. We suffer from the same problems that the US does, our politics just fall a little bit to the left of the Muricans. Neither of our governments are acting in the best interests of the people, they are acting in the best interests of themselves.

 

[Snobike Mike]

The Dems left billions of dollars surplus (remember Bill Clinton) what did Bush Junior do?, left the country in economical shambles, the stock market was below 7 points and things were going down fast, guess who came to save your country from that mess rich cowboy left?

Let me guess, you are an American, from the south most likely?

Spending power has to be in the hands of those who actually spend in the real economy, raising the minimum wage put more money on the hands of the people that buy products.... translation = Good

A higher minimum wage would also help to mitigate the abusive, exploitative working practices of a number of employers, who take advantage of the currently low minimum wage to seek cut-rate help


Sure there has to be a balance between what people has the right to earn and what small companies can afford to pay, but who is going to decide what the right amount is? those companies? yea right because history dictates that companies and corporations really care about the wellbeing of their employees


Now, If we are talking US specifically:

From the LA times:
Currently, an individual with a full-time job at the minimum wage and a family of three to support will fall below the federal poverty line. These workers, despite putting in regular hours, are struggling to provide basic necessities for themselves and their families. By allowing the minimum wage to remain at a nearly unlivable level, we have deemed certain jobs not worthy enough to meet even our country's minimum standard of living

The most common objection to raising the minimum wage is that it destroys jobs. But a slew of recent studies have pointed out that although raising the minimum wage does increase earnings and reduce poverty, it has a limited, almost negligible, effect on employment. Studies have also illustrated that restoring the dignity of work through higher wages reduces worker turnover and increases productivity

I will leave this here an exit this thread because to be honest, to me discussing politics with a republican is not something I would lower myself to.

While the word and insult count in your post is impressive you didn't really answer my simple question.

 

[Schneller]

Quote: The capitalist system stops working when the government intervenes to "make things better."

I will disagree. The capitalistic system is fueled by greed and selfishness. Government is necessary and successful when it harnesses capitalism with social conscience.

Unfortunately, government is made up of people, and humans have weaknesses and can become corrupted.

Just a difference of opinion.

 

[murf]

Yes, Norway in particular. Any country with abundant natural resources (ahem... like Canada) could be in a similar financial position.


.

Doesnt a GSXR600 cost $25000 in that country cause of all the taxes? No thanks.
16 year old working at Timmies should be making $30000 a year?


Ah yes, 100% tax on vehicles....nice

If you choose to buy a car in Norway, prepare for a big shock. Cars are expensive, but more so are the taxes put on vehicles. You may have to pay 100 per cent of the cost of the car on additional taxes and other costs. Cars are taxed according to the weight of the car and the size of the engine – the larger and more powerful the car, the higher the fees. You can purchase cars at local dealers, or import them from other countries.


http://www.expatarrivals.com/norway/buying-a-car-in-norway

 

[murf]

.

Those people whose attitude is: I'm working hard and I'm doing okay, so fcuk those who are less fortunate, are just being selfish. That's the issue I have with canadian Conservatives and American Republicans. I'm okay with the government taking some of my comfortable earned wage and helping those who need it. Do I wish there was less government waste? Yes, of course!

How did it work out for communist countries?

 

[mimico_polak]

Those people whose attitude is: I'm working hard and I'm doing okay, so fcuk those who are less fortunate, are just being selfish. That's the issue I have with canadian Conservatives and American Republicans. I'm okay with the government taking some of my comfortable earned wage and helping those who need it. Do I wish there was less government waste? Yes, of course!

How is it being selfish? Because I select not to throw money at others who are fully capable of working but are electing not to? People who have mental illness, health issues etc I have no issue helping. BUT you can't tell me that the able bodied person able to work but doesn't want to because he's lazy deserves any of my money which I work for...hell while I'm at it why not just give him a room for free somewhere and pay for their housing...

sorry but in my life and experience people who have nothing to show have done it to themselves. They're more interested in partying and having the latest toys instead of having a steady income, a home, or any type of stability in their life....thanks I'd rather keep the money I earn. I'm sure luck has a hand in certain peoples misfortune....but you work to make your own luck too.

Having lost my job recently I can stay home and feel sorry for myself and hope for a break...I choose to look and apply and try to change that instead of sitting on my ***, smoking dope, and waiting and hoping to catch a break.

 

[RockerGuy]

Doesnt a GSXR600 cost $25000 in that country cause of all the taxes? No thanks.
16 year old working at Timmies should be making $30000 a year?


Ah yes, 100% tax on vehicles....nice

If you choose to buy a car in Norway, prepare for a big shock. Cars are expensive, but more so are the taxes put on vehicles. You may have to pay 100 per cent of the cost of the car on additional taxes and other costs. Cars are taxed according to the weight of the car and the size of the engine – the larger and more powerful the car, the higher the fees. You can purchase cars at local dealers, or import them from other countries.


http://www.expatarrivals.com/norway/buying-a-car-in-norway

Hey, isn't that the same country that put their murderers in 5 star hotels?

Sent from my tablet using my paws

 

[caboose56]

Doesnt a GSXR600 cost $25000 in that country cause of all the taxes? No thanks.
16 year old working at Timmies should be making $30000 a year?


Ah yes, 100% tax on vehicles....nice

If you choose to buy a car in Norway, prepare for a big shock. Cars are expensive, but more so are the taxes put on vehicles. You may have to pay 100 per cent of the cost of the car on additional taxes and other costs. Cars are taxed according to the weight of the car and the size of the engine – the larger and more powerful the car, the higher the fees. You can purchase cars at local dealers, or import them from other countries.


http://www.expatarrivals.com/norway/buying-a-car-in-norway

I'm not sure I understand what your point really is. Tax is bad?

You also misquoted the article, only some (the highest taxed) vehicles are subject to a 100% tax.

I used to think tax was bad. I used to think Socialism was bad. I used to think that people in Norway must be driving teeny tiny cars with 9hp. I have a different opinion now, I no longer think high taxes is a bad thing, I think that our government's ability to manage those taxes is bad. I no longer think Socialism is bad, I think it is the ideology of our government to put it's own best interests first that makes Socialism here bad. I no longer think Norwegians drive tiny stupid cars, the typical car in Norway isn't the Buddy in that pic.. it's the Audi.

I don't necessarily think paying more tax is a bad thing if you can see the bang for your buck you're getting from that taxation.

 

[murf]

They are very different systems, cant look at one item without looking at the whole.

I hate to see what an Audi would cost when a VW Golf is double:

Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) 22,313.21*C$ ****47,674.94*C$ norway

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Norway

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in United States are 45.61% lower than in Norway
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 43.30% lower than in Norway
Rent Prices in United States are 37.34% lower than in Norway
Restaurant Prices in United States are 56.77% lower than in Norway
Groceries Prices in United States are 38.27% lower than in Norway
Local Purchasing Power in United States is 39.84% higher than in Norway

 

[Snobike Mike]

I don't necessarily think paying more tax is a bad thing if you can see the bang for your buck you're getting from that taxation.

Why don't you and I do a bit of an experiment then. Lets artificially increase the taxes you pay by 25% and the difference between the actual amount that goes to the gubment and the new amount will go to me. We'll sign an agreement that says I need to disperse those funds in a manner that would generally benefit you. We'll see how long you like that arrangement and then you'll better understand why more taxes is not logically nor economically a great idea.

 

[Schneller]

How did it work out for communist countries?

This is a straw man argument, because you've misrepresented my view as an undefendable position by taking social conscience to the political extreme.

Someone earlier said that I live in utopia. Unfortunately not correct. Their are too many selfish people around who don't care enough for those less fortunate than themselves.

I get it that this is a motorcycle forum and that motorcyclists are more likely to wear a bad ***, tough guy attitude than members in most other types of forums.

I'm just a "liberal bleeding heart" kind of guy. But I am also disgusted by government waste. And all governments, be they conservative, liberal, or NDP, are guilty.

 

[caboose56]

They are very different systems, cant look at one item without looking at the whole.

I hate to see what an Audi would cost when a VW Golf is double:

Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) 22,313.21*C$ ****47,674.94*C$ norway

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Norway

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in United States are 45.61% lower than in Norway
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United States are 43.30% lower than in Norway
Rent Prices in United States are 37.34% lower than in Norway
Restaurant Prices in United States are 56.77% lower than in Norway
Groceries Prices in United States are 38.27% lower than in Norway
Local Purchasing Power in United States is 39.84% higher than in Norway

Why did you leave out the comparison between take home salary after tax and health care or health insurance costs?

Like you said, you need to look at the whole, so why are you just quoting a few indices?

Why don't you and I do a bit of an experiment then. Lets artificially increase the taxes you pay by 25% and the difference between the actual amount that goes to the gubment and the new amount will go to me. We'll sign an agreement that says I need to disperse those funds in a manner that would generally benefit you. We'll see how long you like that arrangement and then you'll better understand why more taxes is not logically nor economically a great idea.

That's idiotic. I'm not even going to explain why this statement is stupid.

 

[Snobike Mike]

That's idiotic. I'm not even going to explain why this statement is stupid.

Is it stupid because deep down in your heart what you really believe is you want more taxes if it doesn't actually come out of your own pocket?

 

[caboose56]

Is it stupid because deep down in your heart what you really believe is you want more taxes if it doesn't actually come out of your own pocket?

Taxes are higher but so are salaries (not just minimum wage). You're either ignoring that fact or you're ignorant of it.
Either way, your arguments are flawed. Deep down I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Yes, Norway in particular. Any country with abundant natural resources (ahem... like Canada) could be in a similar financial position.

The capitalist system stops working when the government intervenes to "make things better". The republican garbage is idiotic because their ideas are no better and they spread the 'socialist hate' because 'socialism is the devil' and the democrats are hardly socialist. The democrat garbage is idiotic too for similar reasons.

The only reason Canada gets referred to as 'socialist' is because we live next to the idiots down south. We suffer from the same problems that the US does, our politics just fall a little bit to the left of the Muricans. Neither of our governments are acting in the best interests of the people, they are acting in the best interests of themselves.

People need to make more money in places like Norway, because the total rate at which tax is paid is substantially higher. That raises the argument about whether you should have services foisted upon you, by default, or be able to choose what services you pay for.

Conservative Americans tend to spit out the word 'socialist' as some form of invective or insult. They don't differentiate between socialism and communism. If they would actually pay attention to their political parties they would see that the only way in which Democrats and Republicans truly differ is not in how much money they take from the public, but in which groups they want to gift that money to.

The minimum wage argument is very like unto the "right to work" argument. A minimum wage is necessary in order to set a base fair operating level for workers. 'Right to Work' legislation is really 'right to fire.' The elimination of the first and creation of the second only serve one sector; business. Over the last few years of economic downturn it has been shown that businesses almost uniformly have used whatever legislation has passed in order to benefit them not to improve the employment situation, nor to put more money back into the economy, but rather to sweeten their bottom lines, increase pay to their top level execs, and kick more money back to investors.

 

[jc100]

Is it stupid because deep down in your heart what you really believe is you want more taxes if it doesn't actually come out of your own pocket?

I'm not totally sure you understand how socialism works. I believe you have been told it is the political version of the "N" word. There's nothing wrong with having a system in place that provides in at least some capacity for the more disadvantaged in society. That's my particular measure of the civility of society. Canada is better than the US in that regard but not as good as it could be. As for higher taxes, I'm with Caboose, if they are spent wisely and improve infrastructure for instance, then I don't have a problem with it. Some of the most impressive countries in the world for standard of living and general happiness have high taxes. Something must be working.

 

[Snobike Mike]

Taxes are higher but so are salaries (not just minimum wage). You're either ignoring that fact or you're ignorant of it.
Either way, your arguments are flawed.

Generally taxes are calculated by percentage so your statement is illogical. Of course if salaries are higher and the tax rate is constant then the amount of tax you pay is more, that's nothing more than simple arithmetic. But that's not a logical argument in terms of economics.

I'm asking you about paying more taxes which would mean a higher marginal tax rate which you say is a good thing. Based on your claim, I in turn suggested a mini scientific experiment in which we would see how you'd like it if we increased your marginal tax rates which you flippantly waved off because it was "idiotic". In querying why you think it's idiotic you further deflected by saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

What we're discussing starts with economics 101 and moves into social studies 101. If you tax the rich to pay off the poor you are creating a dis-incentive for the rich to work harder and an incentive for the poor to work harder. That is the problem with your argument.

Deep down I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Well, if you say so.....

 

[inreb]

I'm not sure I understand what your point really is. Tax is bad?

You also misquoted the article, only some (the highest taxed) vehicles are subject to a 100% tax.

I used to think tax was bad. I used to think Socialism was bad. I used to think that people in Norway must be driving teeny tiny cars with 9hp. I have a different opinion now, I no longer think high taxes is a bad thing, I think that our government's ability to manage those taxes is bad. I no longer think Socialism is bad, I think it is the ideology of our government to put it's own best interests first that makes Socialism here bad. I no longer think Norwegians drive tiny stupid cars, the typical car in Norway isn't the Buddy in that pic.. it's the Audi.

I don't necessarily think paying more tax is a bad thing if you can see the bang for your buck you're getting from that taxation.

Wow, I'm really starting to warm to this guy(not gay) I don't know much about Norway specifically but this post is perfectly inline with how I feel about tax and government.

As far as minimum wage, I don't know where the exact dollar figure should be set, but you have to ask yourself what kind of country have we engineered where a person gives his time and meets an employers standard and goes home with very little buying power.
Modern societies are engineered and manipulated with a seemingly endless set of rules and regulations. That's the way it is. Then why should a huge chunk of the populations' well being then be determined by scoundrels with a wild west eat sh*t and die mentality?
Rather than asking the great unwashed to look inward to figure out their loserness, maybe these great pillars of society should ask themselves, if they're so effin wonderful, why can't they run a business that'll support a decent wage. It's the same question.

 

[Snobike Mike]

if they're so effin wonderful, why can't they run a business that'll support a decent wage. It's the same question.

Well, if a capitalist society is forced to compete on a world stage with a communist country you may find more than a few reasons why people, regardless of whether they are wonderful or not, are able to run or not run a business that'll support a "decent" wage.

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