Why are Ontario's HOV lane rules different?

[caboose56]

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No, i have grasped it.

It's not my fault you came unarmed to an intellectual gunfight.

In Canada, a vast majority of bikes are a 2nd vehicle for the owner.. so all your life-cycle analysis points are meaningless because all of that is over and above the costs of the owners cage. Not only does a bike pollute more than a compact car, 100% of its production and dispostion costs are superfluous....

Dispute that... go ahead.

A compact car that has relatively low production/disposition costs and is also really good on fuel is probably the best you can shoot for. The instant you buy a 2nd vehicle, regardless of how efficient or clean it is, you accept the costs and impact associated with owning two vehicles.

 

[NP6000]

No, i have grasped it.

Clearly you haven't, seeing as you continue to argue about pollutants.

In Canada, a vast majority of bikes are a 2nd vehicle for the owner.. so all your life-cycle analysis points are meaningless because all of that is over and above the costs of the owners cage. Not only does a bike pollute more than a compact car, 100% of its production and dispostion costs are superfluous....

The life cycle analysis arguement is valid, regardless if the motorcycle is a second vehicle because:

[lca impact of compact + motorcycle] < [lca impact of H2]

 

[caboose56]

Clearly you haven't, seeing as you continue to argue about pollutants.

The life cycle analysis arguement is valid, regardless if the motorcycle is a second vehicle because:

[lca impact of compact + motorcycle] < [lca impact of H2]

Without numbers that is pure speculation. It might be, it might not be. I honestly don't know which would be lesser, but i know that the Hummer pollutes less per km driven.

[lca impact of compact + motorcycle] > [lca impact of compact]

How about that?

Again.. if you think that you're being even the slightest bit environmentally friendly while owning a bike AND a car... you're retarded.

 

[NP6000]

Without numbers that is pure speculation. It might be, it might not be. I honestly don't know which would be lesser, but i know that the Hummer pollutes less per km driven.

[lca impact of compact + motorcycle] > [lca impact of compact]

How about that?

Again.. if you think that you're being even the slightest bit environmentally friendly while owning a bike AND a car... you're retarded.

Im in agreement with all of the above. I only contest your speculation about the H2 vs scooter debate. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[caboose56]

1) Where are they built? The Hummer H2 are built in Indiana. Most scooters and motorcycles are most likely built in Japan. Transportation costs to get the product are a question. The scooters and motos are a lot lighter than the Hummer but have to travel much much farther. Advantage.. ??
2) Material costs. Economies of scale: If you're making more parts you can make them cheaper and more efficiently. There's no question that there were more of each part made for a Hummer than for any one model of bike so production costs decrease. However, the Hummer still weighs an order of magnitutde more than a bike. Advantage moto.
3) Life span. Bikes are far more easily written off and scrapped. A Hummer can easily see 200,000km. How often do you see bikes (that aren't goldwings or similar) reach over 100,000km? Advantage Hummer.
4) Tires/Brakes/Consumables. Even the BF Goodrich All Terrains that the Hummers come with are good for 60,000km. There isn't a motorcycle tire in the world that will last that long. It's not unreasonable for a sport bike rider to change a rear tire every 5,000km. Advantage Hummer, or a tie if it's a harder cruiser tire.

And so on....

All these things add up. It's not as simple as you make it out to be and it's also not as clear a difference as you make it out to be. Lots of people consider a bike "high mileage" if it's over 40K, but for a car that doesn't seem to be until 200K. A rider would need 5 bikes to match the total kms on that Hummer.

 

[NP6000]

1) Where are they built? The Hummer H2 are built in Indiana. Most scooters and motorcycles are most likely built in Japan. Transportation costs to get the product are a question. The scooters and motos are a lot lighter than the Hummer but have to travel much much farther. Advantage.. ??
2) Material costs. Economies of scale: If you're making more parts you can make them cheaper and more efficiently. There's no question that there were more of each part made for a Hummer than for any one model of bike so production costs decrease. However, the Hummer still weighs an order of magnitutde more than a bike. Advantage moto.
3) Life span. Bikes are far more easily written off and scrapped. A Hummer can easily see 200,000km. How often do you see bikes (that aren't goldwings or similar) reach over 100,000km? Advantage Hummer.
4) Tires/Brakes/Consumables. Even the BF Goodrich All Terrains that the Hummers come with are good for 60,000km. There isn't a motorcycle tire in the world that will last that long. It's not unreasonable for a sport bike rider to change a rear tire every 5,000km. Advantage Hummer, or a tie if it's a harder cruiser tire.

And so on....

All these things add up. It's not as simple as you make it out to be and it's also not as clear a difference as you make it out to be. Lots of people consider a bike "high mileage" if it's over 40K, but for a car that doesn't seem to be until 200K. A rider would need 5 bikes to match the total kms on that Hummer.

Agreed, it isn't as cut and dry and either of us made it seem. Carnegie Mellon makes big $$$ doing these studies for this reason.

 

[mototours]

Hey folks I started this thread because for some reason in Ontario motorcyclists have less rights than elsewhere in North America!

 

[Rob MacLennan]

It's not a matter of "getting the same rights" but rather explaining to the government why we should be granted the same privilege as certain cars, when our motorcycles don't carry the same number of people. Many cars are more fuel efficient than are performance motorcycles. A currently manufactured SUV, even a large one, has more stringent emissions controls than do motorcycles. We don't take up appreciably less space on the road than does a car unless we're travelling in staggered formation, with another bike, or following closer than is reasonable.

So we have to approach this from another angle. Motorcycles contain less material, and yet can still move someone efficiently. They take up less room, when parked, in the urban core. They move more freely through slow moving traffic, even barring lane splitting, and therefore contribute less to traffic congestion. Considering that a moving vehicle uses less fuel per Km travelled than does one stuck in gridlock, that's a valuable attribute.

You need to sell single-track vehicles as part of an overall traffic reduction strategy, not just as a vehicle that warrants permission to access high occupancy vehicle lanes.

 

[knowledge]

There are no full electric cars in our market place to the best of my knowledge, the only car available right now is the Chevy Volt which was released in the USA a couple of months ago.

Tessla! 300 kms on a full charge.

 

[mototours]

Hey what if I wanted to buy an electric motorcycle like a Zero, shouldn't I be able to use the HOV lanes?

I still do not think it is right for the MTO to not allow motorcycles on our HOV lanes when in the US the federal government has made it UNLAWFUL not allowing motorcycles access to these byways. Just Google HOV and you will see.

 

[Brian P]

You're not alone in thinking this is wrong, but it's low on the priority list of OTHER things that I'd rather see changed ... like raising the infernally low speed limits ...

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Hey Rob, what if I wanted to buy an electric motorcycle like a Zero, shouldn't I be able to use the HOV lanes?

I still do not think it is right for the MTO to not allow motorcycles on our HOV lanes when in the US the federal government has made it UNLAWFUL not allowing motorcycles access to these byways. Just Google HOV and you will see.

The Canada Safety Council is hosting an International Sympostum on Experienced rider training this summer in Ontario www.erts.ca which is sponsored by the FIM. I am embarrassed by our current governments stance on HOV lanes but I seem to be alone on this. Thank-you for my reality check

If you had a Zero, then you might indeed have an argument that the Ontario government might heed. In my experience the "because everyone else does" statement doesn't fly with them. As to holding up the United States Federal government as a shining example of how things should be done....... well, the absurdity of that knows no bounds. If you want it then you have to use irrefutable logic, not comparisons.

 

[Marshallsw]

I'd like to start a campaign to change this law.

I'm pretty sure our representatives are not aware that motorcycles have air cooled that require a constant flow of air in order to run. We also don't have air conditionaing and anyone who has had to sit on for an hour on top of an 1100cc oven in summer heat nows it's simply dangerous.

It's a stupid law and we need to change it.

 

[viper84737]

Extremely, and I'm on board with you. In the USA it's a FEDERAL LAW that motorcycles be allowed to use the HOV lanes across the entire country. There's no reason it should be disallowed in Scumtario, too. Let me know how I can help.

 

[Marshallsw]

Ok. So I just went to the Ministry of Transportation eb site at http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/about/minister.shtml

On this page is a link to send the Minister a message.

I encourage everyone to take this step. This is what I wrote:

Dear Minister Chiarelli,

I am writing to you to bring to your attention a serious issue affecting road safety in Ontario.

Specifically, the current law prohibiting motorcycles from using Ontario’s HOV lanes without the presence of two passengers is putting both motorcyclists and other drivers at risk of injury and vehicle damage.

Perhaps the Minister is not aware that motorcycles, unlike cars, are predominantly air cooled machines. This means, in order to safely operate, a motorcycle must maintain a constant flow of air over the engine. Additionally, unlike cars, motorcyclists are not protected from their engines by any firewall or heat barriers. Rather we sit in the elements and the heat rising from an engine (250-400 degrees Celsius) rises directly up to the rider, causing extreme discomfort and potentially dangerous conditions. Engines in summer conditions will simply stop running, leaving riders stranded and suffering heat exhaustion.

Besides the safety concerns there are many other good reasons to reconsider Ontario’s current law in relation to motorcycles using the HOV lanes. For example, motorcyclists have no protection from the elements – so, while car drivers can safely sit and wait in air conditioned comfort in the heat of summer - or wipe the freezing rain from their windshields with a click of a switch – motorcyclists have no such luxuries.
Another good reason to exempt motorcycles from a two passenger requirement is that people who choose a motorcycle over a car have already contributed to reducing traffic and reducing their carbon footprint. Motorcycles are already at 50% capacity with a single rider and reduce traffic congestion on our roads.

On behalf of all motorcycle riders in Ontario, (the only jurisdiction in North America with this requirement by the way), I am requesting that this matter be addressed and the rules changed to permit motorcycles free use of the growing number of HOV lanes in the Province.
I would welcome an opportunity to discuss this matter further with you or a member of your staff and can provide any further details you may require in order to properly consider this request.

Yours very truly,

 

[viper84737]

I suspect the case for allowing this will have to be better than "our poor motorcycles overheat cause nobody designs them to get stuck in traffic".

It should be demonstrated that:

1) motorcycles using the HOV lanes is more efficient for ALL, and safer for ALL.
2) not only YOU feel this way, but 100,000 angry voting riders, who are all ****** off when they hear the name "Chiarelli", because he ignores the case for increased efficiency and safety.
3) you'll go on CP24, because you went to high school with one of its prominent anchors, who happens to be a friend of yours (which I did, and she is) and can bring about immediate province-wide awareness of Mr. Chiarelli's incompetence in ignoring something that is both more efficient and safer.

Otherwise governments like Ontario have zero incentive to even acknowledge your existence, because they have other matters to attend to, such as voting to give themselves pay raises since nobody is aware of how incompetent they are, and thus will blindly vote them back into power next election anyway. Oh wait, that whole CP24 thing might be of use, hmm?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

You'd be better off contacting Andrea Horwath, since she seems to wear the pants in the Legislative Assembly these days. It might be something that the Liberals would be willing to give up, rather than an additional useless and pointless 2% tax on the well off.

 

[OpenGambit]

I suspect the case for allowing this will have to be better than "our poor motorcycles overheat cause nobody designs them to get stuck in traffic".

It should be demonstrated that:

1) motorcycles using the HOV lanes is more efficient for ALL, and safer for ALL.
2) not only YOU feel this way, but 100,000 angry voting riders, who are all ****** off when they hear the name "Chiarelli", because he ignores the case for increased efficiency and safety.
3) you'll go on CP24, because you went to high school with one of its prominent anchors, who happens to be a friend of yours (which I did, and she is) and can bring about immediate province-wide awareness of Mr. Chiarelli's incompetence in ignoring something that is both more efficient and safer.

Otherwise governments like Ontario have zero incentive to even acknowledge your existence, because they have other matters to attend to, such as voting to give themselves pay raises since nobody is aware of how incompetent they are, and thus will blindly vote them back into power next election anyway. Oh wait, that whole CP24 thing might be of use, hmm?

I don't see you writing anything.

 

[viper84737]

I don't see you writing anything.

I'm not allowed to write to politicians. We spent many years sealing up that brew of seething hatred and contempt for human stupidity. If one microfracture were to be allowed in that seal, an indescribable, furious Hell would be unleashed.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I'm not allowed to write to politicians. We spent many years sealing up that brew of seething hatred and contempt for human stupidity. If one microfracture were to be allowed in that seal, an indescribable, furious Hell would be unleashed.

On politicians? Go for it.

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